350B won't start
This is a new rebuilt pump that just came off a test stand. It has now had two pumps on it and it acts exactly the same way.
As for the solenoid, what are the chances that the first one failed just as I shut it off, and then I got a newly rebuilt pump with a bad one in it?
I think that I will have to check the valve timing, like someone suggested. Could a key on the camshaft broke enough to throw it out of time but still allow it to turn the shaft?
As for the solenoid, what are the chances that the first one failed just as I shut it off, and then I got a newly rebuilt pump with a bad one in it?
I think that I will have to check the valve timing, like someone suggested. Could a key on the camshaft broke enough to throw it out of time but still allow it to turn the shaft?
Yes you can have a sheared key. Yes your shaft could still turn although probably not very well. That would be a timing issue for sure.
However! One question for me still remains to be answered.
Do you have any fuel at all, at the injectors where the lines connect? Is your injector pump trying to inject fuel?
Whether you are out of time or not, your pump should still try to inject fuel if the fuel system is functioning properly.
I am trying to establish what you have that is good. It's like Apollo 13... What do you have that is still good on the spacecraft?
This should be a process of elimination. If one thing is established as good then move to the next thing in line that can cause this issue.
"Fuel" is number one. Check everything associated with fuel. That would be fuel flow from the tank all the way through the lines to the injectors and your fuel return line back at the tank. Establish everything associated with fuel is okay and functioning properly. If you are certain that fuel is not the problem then move on to number two.
"Timing" is number two. If you have fuel that is trying to be injected and it still will not start, then check your timing and everything associated with timing. That would be from the timing pin inserted in the flywheel in the top dead center position on number one cylinder. Check the keyed gear and shaft at the front of the motor. If those are okay then move to the inside of your injector pump. Is every thing in time with top dead center. Are the two dots lined on the end of the shaft and the square socket in the pump. Are your two timing marks in the window lined up and where they should be.
I'm not asking these points as questions for me. I want you to answer them for you in a process of elimination.
My point is for you to not be trying to fix in the middle of the thing when something to the left or right of where you are is the issue. You cant just look a part of the fuel or part of the timing. It has to be from front to back on every thing that effects the function of the engine.
Establish what you have that is good and in that process you should find the issue.
However! One question for me still remains to be answered.
Do you have any fuel at all, at the injectors where the lines connect? Is your injector pump trying to inject fuel?
Whether you are out of time or not, your pump should still try to inject fuel if the fuel system is functioning properly.
I am trying to establish what you have that is good. It's like Apollo 13... What do you have that is still good on the spacecraft?
This should be a process of elimination. If one thing is established as good then move to the next thing in line that can cause this issue.
"Fuel" is number one. Check everything associated with fuel. That would be fuel flow from the tank all the way through the lines to the injectors and your fuel return line back at the tank. Establish everything associated with fuel is okay and functioning properly. If you are certain that fuel is not the problem then move on to number two.
"Timing" is number two. If you have fuel that is trying to be injected and it still will not start, then check your timing and everything associated with timing. That would be from the timing pin inserted in the flywheel in the top dead center position on number one cylinder. Check the keyed gear and shaft at the front of the motor. If those are okay then move to the inside of your injector pump. Is every thing in time with top dead center. Are the two dots lined on the end of the shaft and the square socket in the pump. Are your two timing marks in the window lined up and where they should be.
I'm not asking these points as questions for me. I want you to answer them for you in a process of elimination.
My point is for you to not be trying to fix in the middle of the thing when something to the left or right of where you are is the issue. You cant just look a part of the fuel or part of the timing. It has to be from front to back on every thing that effects the function of the engine.
Establish what you have that is good and in that process you should find the issue.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.
Great Point Ken!!! I was thinking the same thing!!! -
caribcanuck
- 420 crawler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:39 pm
This reminds me of a 2007 sunfire I worked on for a friend,I suggested it sounded like a timing issue,they informed me the timing chain was replaced by the dealer 11 months earlier, and now the car would start but run like crap wouldn,t rev up and was throwing all kinds of error codes, Canadian Tire and the dealer both said the engine was shot and needed replacing. The owner and dealer swore up and down the timing chain wasnt the issue. Being the stubborn fool I am I took the timing cover off only to find the chain had jump 4 teeth. Turned out the dealer replaced the chain and sprockers but not the tensioner which was prone to failing and a newer version was now used. Car has been running trouble free for 18 months now, As a side note the dealer did provide the parts at no cost to her. Never assume anything when it comes to engines I've had new parts out of the box be bad.
The pump is a DB. We have tried current directly from the battery to the solenoid.KenP wrote:A perfect score... didn't answer a single question I asked in trying to help you.
Frankly, you're not listening. I'm done.
Yes, we had the solenoid out of the original pump and it was working. Now it has a new pump with new solenoid in it.
I have removed every drop of diesel out of it and started over before changing pumps, and still have the same problem, so I don't think that I ingested anything.
You can accuse me of not listening, but I seem to be answering the same questions over and over again. As I said I've had two injector pumps on it, now you want me to change to a third one?
Did you even read what I posted? And from what I have read no one asked you to try a third pump! At least not yet.
Maybe I missed something here but you have not answered a single question we've asked! At least not here on the very forum that is trying to help you!
Maybe you answered them to your self but not on here. I still don't know how far your fuel is being pumped or if it is even being pumped.
I don't care if you have filled the tank with clean fuel! If it isn't being pumped out the ends of your injector lines, then you are not going to start and run! If you don't tell us what you have going on besides the fact that you have changed pumps and looked at the solenoids we can't help you! That doesn't tell us a thing!
I think we have established the fact that you have changed the pumps! And that you have looked at the solenoids! AND YOU STILL HAVE A PROBLEM! We established that a long time ago in the start of this thread!
What is the pump doing with the fuel that you say is so prevalent??????? Is the injector pump pumping this fuel through the injector lines to the injectors? Yes or No?
If that answer is Yes then I would suspect it to be a timing issue. If the answer is No, then I would suspect it is something to do with the fuel system. It is either restricted or stopped up inside the injector pump! And Yes it can be a brand new rebuilt pump!!
We are trying to help you! But we are not there with you! We can't see what is going on so you have to tell us what it is doing.
Maybe I missed something here but you have not answered a single question we've asked! At least not here on the very forum that is trying to help you!
Maybe you answered them to your self but not on here. I still don't know how far your fuel is being pumped or if it is even being pumped.
I don't care if you have filled the tank with clean fuel! If it isn't being pumped out the ends of your injector lines, then you are not going to start and run! If you don't tell us what you have going on besides the fact that you have changed pumps and looked at the solenoids we can't help you! That doesn't tell us a thing!
I think we have established the fact that you have changed the pumps! And that you have looked at the solenoids! AND YOU STILL HAVE A PROBLEM! We established that a long time ago in the start of this thread!
What is the pump doing with the fuel that you say is so prevalent??????? Is the injector pump pumping this fuel through the injector lines to the injectors? Yes or No?
If that answer is Yes then I would suspect it to be a timing issue. If the answer is No, then I would suspect it is something to do with the fuel system. It is either restricted or stopped up inside the injector pump! And Yes it can be a brand new rebuilt pump!!
We are trying to help you! But we are not there with you! We can't see what is going on so you have to tell us what it is doing.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.
We had a Deere fuel filter several years ago that had a paper ring around the pleating and inside the steel container ,It seams the way they built these things the paper holds the pleating till adhered to the base then the paper was to come off just before the rest of the procedures .We,, The paper never came off and I won't tell you what all we replaced before that was found !!I still have that filter and Deere eventually paid for the mess.Digitup.
Nosoup,
I don't post here to toot my own horn but I have been involved in the automotive repair industry for several decades and have authored a couple of books on automotive systems and repair.
I come here because these guys are literally the best and most knowledgeable talent in regards to JD equipment, not only here in the states but by extension probably the world.
I am quite serious about that statement and I do not make it casually.
So please keep that in mind. They are helping you for free, it will be worth your time to really concentrate on what they are trying to say and if it does not make sense to you tell them so and they'll be cool with that and explain it to you in a different way, but they have to feel like you are putting as much effort into trying to learn from them as they are in sitting down, thinking about your problem, and typing out a detailed response to you.
Believe me, we all know how frustrating it is to have a broken machine, especially when we either badly need to use it or are scared since we do not know how much it is going to cost and how hard it is going to be to fix.
We all are aware that you have put a second pump on and are still having a problem, no one is accusing you of being a bad mechanic or doing poor work, but at some point an experienced mechanic realizes (often it is from doing it the hard way) that when you work on something and you still have the same problem, painful as it is you need to start back at the beginning again. And that is what you need to do as well. However, this is not to mean you need to start at the beginning by repeating your work, but start at the beginning in your troubleshooting and diagnostics.
What LeonardL is suggesting you do (Oh BTW you need to read his biography that he has posted up here somewhere as it will give you an appreciation as to how much hands-on and how much he has seen with the exact same piece of equipment you have. KenP I have also seen giving some very knowledgeable and intuitive advice on things that I would have a hard time even starting), is to start at the injector line and work backwards. He would like you to loosen up or remove the banjo bolt holding one of the injector lines to the pump and then crank the engine over. If you do this you are supposed to get a squirt of diesel fuel coming out of that tapped hole in the pump. That will tell you if the problem is in front of that banjo bolt or downstream of that connection.
Now, getting back to fixing this problem by yourself using the resources of the people on this forum, a casual glance looks to me like you have used up 8.5 of your nine lives here so this is my suggestion-
We all make mistakes, the joke about the difference between a professional mechanic and a shadetree mechanic is that a professional mechanic can hide his mistakes better is not necessarily inaccurate. So when people tell you to do something, or ask you to clarify something it is not because they think you incompetent but because they know that even the best of us make mistakes and overlook things. If you don't believe me look up my injection pump rebuild where I screwed up.
Anyway, if something does not make sense or does not work do not re-post what work you have already done, but instead ask what you need to do next and then once you ask DO what is suggested. If you don't understand 100% what is being suggested, ask for a better detailed description and most likely you'll get one.
The fact that people are still offering help to you should reinforce that everyone here wants you to succeed, and will hang in there with you as long as they think you are moving in the direction they are pointing you.
Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded but that's how I see it.
I don't post here to toot my own horn but I have been involved in the automotive repair industry for several decades and have authored a couple of books on automotive systems and repair.
I come here because these guys are literally the best and most knowledgeable talent in regards to JD equipment, not only here in the states but by extension probably the world.
I am quite serious about that statement and I do not make it casually.
So please keep that in mind. They are helping you for free, it will be worth your time to really concentrate on what they are trying to say and if it does not make sense to you tell them so and they'll be cool with that and explain it to you in a different way, but they have to feel like you are putting as much effort into trying to learn from them as they are in sitting down, thinking about your problem, and typing out a detailed response to you.
Believe me, we all know how frustrating it is to have a broken machine, especially when we either badly need to use it or are scared since we do not know how much it is going to cost and how hard it is going to be to fix.
We all are aware that you have put a second pump on and are still having a problem, no one is accusing you of being a bad mechanic or doing poor work, but at some point an experienced mechanic realizes (often it is from doing it the hard way) that when you work on something and you still have the same problem, painful as it is you need to start back at the beginning again. And that is what you need to do as well. However, this is not to mean you need to start at the beginning by repeating your work, but start at the beginning in your troubleshooting and diagnostics.
What LeonardL is suggesting you do (Oh BTW you need to read his biography that he has posted up here somewhere as it will give you an appreciation as to how much hands-on and how much he has seen with the exact same piece of equipment you have. KenP I have also seen giving some very knowledgeable and intuitive advice on things that I would have a hard time even starting), is to start at the injector line and work backwards. He would like you to loosen up or remove the banjo bolt holding one of the injector lines to the pump and then crank the engine over. If you do this you are supposed to get a squirt of diesel fuel coming out of that tapped hole in the pump. That will tell you if the problem is in front of that banjo bolt or downstream of that connection.
Now, getting back to fixing this problem by yourself using the resources of the people on this forum, a casual glance looks to me like you have used up 8.5 of your nine lives here so this is my suggestion-
We all make mistakes, the joke about the difference between a professional mechanic and a shadetree mechanic is that a professional mechanic can hide his mistakes better is not necessarily inaccurate. So when people tell you to do something, or ask you to clarify something it is not because they think you incompetent but because they know that even the best of us make mistakes and overlook things. If you don't believe me look up my injection pump rebuild where I screwed up.
Anyway, if something does not make sense or does not work do not re-post what work you have already done, but instead ask what you need to do next and then once you ask DO what is suggested. If you don't understand 100% what is being suggested, ask for a better detailed description and most likely you'll get one.
The fact that people are still offering help to you should reinforce that everyone here wants you to succeed, and will hang in there with you as long as they think you are moving in the direction they are pointing you.
Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded but that's how I see it.
-
jdemaris
He shouldn't be. If in doubt - just hook an injector to one of the injector lines - on the outside. Crank the engine over and either the injector fires off a charge - or it does not. The amount of fuel each time it injects is only a few drops.nosoup4u wrote: when you open an injector line, it seems to the former Deere mechanic helping me, that it is not sending enough fuel to the injectors The mechanic helping me is totally flummoxed
I doubt your "new" pump has zero hours. More likely most major parts in it will have MANY hours. There is no renewal process for most when a pump is patched up and called "rebuilt."nosoup4u wrote: This is the second pump, I don't think that both pumps would have twisted off at the exact same spot. Especially one with zero hours on it.
In regard to the shaft - it is designed to break if the pump turns too hard. That is to protect the rest of the engine from breaking something else more major. Older pumps used shear bolt and these use shear -shafts. Did your first shaft break? I read through your posts but it remains unclear to me.
Solenoids almost never fail. What does give trouble is the mechanical linkage that connects the solenoid to the fuel metering valve. Or - the rubber insulator bushings where the power-post goes through the pump cover. If in doubt, yank the cover off and try to start with NO solenoid. With no solenoid in place, it will automatically be in "run" position. Just make sure you know how to shut it down by hand - if it DOES start.nosoup4u wrote: As for the solenoid, what are the chances that the first one failed just as I shut it off, and then I got a newly rebuilt pump with a bad one in it?
I hate to be overly simplistic - but your engine needs compression, air, and fuel to start. If it's not starting - it's lacking one of those ingredients.
Two cents from a newbie
When we were out in the woods for those four days trying to get our machine running I could not for the life of me get it bled. I finally got the injection pump rebuilt. Even after the injection pump, a new fuel pump, new fuel and filter, she was really tough to get bled. The only way I could get fuel to the banjos on the injectors was to remove the air intake at the manifold, hook the 12 volt batteries in series to make 24 volts to the starter so it went like hell and spray diesel directly down the intake. The raw fuel made her puke smoke awful but it fired and helped move along the process. Eventually we bled the system and she ran (granted white with smoke). I learned about diesel injection pumps at a young age because VW diesel rabbits were fun to drive and cheap to buy with all new parts and miss-timed injection pumps. My old man called it the rabbit patch because those cars just kept multiplying. Let the good guys here know if you got it running, and how.
No such thing as a free bulldozer
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 113 guests