350 B Starving for fuel

[Mark K]

I have a 1972 350 B straight blade dozer. It runs great for 30 seconds to 20 minutes then it starves for fuel and shuts off. I am able to restart it without any problems.

The machine sat for about 2 years, I put in a new battery and it started right up and ran fine for a few days, then this problem developed.

I checked the return fuel line from the injector pump, it was clear to the tank, I was able to blow through it and hear the air in the tank. I checked the injector pump return, check valve, clean clear fuel was flowing at all times, even when the machine was starving for fuel. There was no evidence of rotted governor parts or mouse turds. I also have 12 volts to the IJ pump even when it is starving for fuel. I do not have any loose fuel line fittings.

I installed new fuel filters. I drained the fuel tank, cleaned out the crud from the tank, and cleaned out the strainer filter that is in the tank. I also cleaned out the fuel line from the tank to the lifter pump, by pumping fuel through it with an electric fuel pump.

I bled the filters, at the IJ pump and at the injectors. The tractor fired right up. I bled each injector line again with the tractor running. I let the tractor run for about 20 minutes, it ran great. I drove it about 50' and it began to starve for fuel again and shut off. It stated right up and I was able to back it up the 50' and it again shut off. Back to square one.

Before I pull the IJ pump, I would like to rule out all other possible problems. I plan on by-passing the fuel line from the tank to the lifter pump to verify that that line is not the problem. I would also like to verify that my lifter pump is not the problem, how do I test it? I have a Airtex pump which is not serviceable. Is fuel suppose to free flow from the tank through the lifter pump to the fliters? How can I test the fuel solenoid I have a Roosa Master IJ pump.

Anything else that I should check or test?

Any advice or help will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Mark

[LeonardL]

Did you check the fuel tank vent tube located under the fill cap? It sounds to me like it is pulling a vacuum in the tank. The vent tube goes from the top of the tank just under the cap down through the bottom of the tank and is famous for getting stopped up by either debris or more likely, insects such as "Mud Daubers". Try cleaning this tube out before you do anything else.

[jdemaris]

I plan on by-passing the fuel line from the tank to the lifter pump to verify that that line is not the problem.

I'd bypass the tank fuel line, and fuel tank for a true test to see if the injection pump itself is working OK. All you need is a small fuel tank and a line with gravity feed to the injection pump. I often use a small outboard motor tank but anything will do. I drove home a diesel Chevy Suburban over fifty miles with a 5 gallon outboard motor tank laying on the back seat - hooked to the injection pump with 10 feet of rubber hose.
The injection pump does not need any pressure fed to it - just a source of air-free fuel.

I would also like to verify that my lifter pump is not the problem, how do I test it?

The best test is to remove it, hook it to a fuel source and activate it by hand via the metal arm that normally rides on the engine's camshaft. Using the hand-primer lever (if it has one) is a bad way to test. Hook the inlet to a fuel source 5-10 feet below the fuel pump and it ought to draw fuel easily with a few pumps.

Is fuel suppose to free flow from the tank through the lifter pump to the fliters?

NO. If it does, the fuel pump is bad. It has two check valves inside that should stop all flow of fuel unless there is pressure on the inlet, or vacuum on the outlet.

How can I test the fuel solenoid
Mark

You really can't from the outside of the pump. The only test you can do from the outside is to verify it's not ABSOLUTELY bad. There is NO test to confirm it's ABSOLUTELY good. That because there is no mechanical connection between the fuel solenoid and the injection-pump shut-off/on lever (metering valve). I.e. the solenoid can be working but the pump still not coming "on." There is no positive engagement. From what you describe -I doubt it's your problem anyway.

I suggest you hook a gravity-feed fuel source the injection pump or fuel-filter. If it still does NOT work well - I'd check the fine-mesh metal fuel filter inside the injection pump. If it DOES work with the directly-hooked fuel tank - you know the problem is in the fuel-filter/lines/fuel-tank somewhere.

[Mark K]

Thank you for the quick reply.

I think that my fuel transfer pump may be bad. When I changed my fuel filters, I had to turn off the fuel at the bottom of the tank because it was just free-flowing from the tank through the lifter pump. I have an Airtex lifter pump, not serviceable, I'm waiting for a price from JD. It took very little to fill the fliters other than opening the fuel shutoff valve on the bottom of the fuel tank and a few hand pumps on the lifter pump. (I know that just because the lifter pump works by hand doesn't insure that the cam arm is pumping. I learned this on my JCB backhoe. It would run until the filters were empty, I would bleed and prime then run for 10 minutes. I pulled the lifter pump and found the cam arm not connected to the pump.)

I will try what you suggested by gravity feeding the IJ pump and see how the tractor runs. I will also try gravity feeding the lifter pump and see how that goes. I will also pull the lifter pump and see how it pumps by operating the arm that rides on the cam.

If I need to check the screen inside the IJ pump, where is it?

Thanks,
Mark

[jtrichard]

i would think you should be able to take the outlet line off of the lift pump and put your thumb over the fitting and have some one crank the engine over and see if you get any pressure and see if it holds pressure for a little while

[Mark K]

I can try to test the lifter pump with my thumb, but I don't know if it will help me. The lifter pump is very low pressure and is suppose to pump 3 quarts per minute at 1600 camshaft rpm with 2 psi outlet pressure. It will tell me if the pump can hold pressure or not. My local JD dealer has the lifter pump assemble in stock, it's $65, so not to bad if I need it. If it stops snowing I'll test it and bypass the existing fuel lines tomorrow.

I have a 12 volt electric fuel pump, would it do any harm to the IJ pump if I use it to supply fuel to the IJ pump to test it, I think it is around 6psi? (I used it while working on an old international scout) Is it possible to put too much fuel pressure into the IJ pump? If possible, and the tractor runs with this configuration, this would tell me that my IJ pump is functioning properly and my problems lie in the fuel supply chain as stated above.

I will also check the fuel tank vent. When I cleaned out the tank yesterday I did spot the vent on the bottom of the tank, but I did not realized what it was until I read Lenard's post above. If I recall, it was plugged up. It looked like a small welded circle on the bottom of the tank, about the size of a quarter. It had a dimple in the center, suppose to be a hole for the vent. I'll clean it 1st thing tomorrow. I had read about this in an earlier post and I did remove the fuel cap when the tractor was starting to starving for fuel and it did not recover or seem to make any difference. The tank drain was plugged solid from the bugs, I had to clean it out with a wire.

I now have one more problem, my starter is disengaging after about one revolution of the engine. Any ideas?

Thank you for all of the help

Mark

[jdemaris]

My local JD dealer has the lifter pump assemble in stock, it's $65, so not to bad if I need it.

Deere will sell you another tin-can Airtex. I wouldn't spend $30 on it, much less $65. You can buy a much better French Sofabex for $40-$45 if you shop around. Deere has used them on ag-tractors for years. Also had them for awhile on 350Cs and 450Cs when the engines were made in Saran, France. It's a take-apart pump and matches the footprint of the original AC pump your engine once had. The pressed-together Airtex is NOT the same foot-print. Its bottom sticks out much more and will interfere with some newer tech starters on some engines. Especially a problem on the shorter three-cylinder engines on the 350s. Tisco sells the Sofabex for $41. Part # RE42211B. May not be French anymore but is still the same quality. I've got them on all my Deere diesels.

In regard to electric? No problem except anything that makes more then 10 PSI screws up the automatic timing advance in the injection pump. Also a problem if you are drawing fuel from way below (not an issue in a Deere crawler).

I attached a photo of the fuel screen in the injection pump.

If your starter is cranking a bit and then the drive disengages - you probably have a bad clutch in the starter drive. If you wind up with parts that come to over $75 - keep in mind you can buy a brand new, better-tech gear-reduction starter for around $100. That's new, not rebuilt. So, you get to keep your old one.

[Mark K]

Thank you for the photos. That was the type on the earlier 350's. I was looking for the Airtex because that is what was original to my tractor. I'll check on the price of the sofabex pump from JD or I'll call Tisco.

Now that I know where the filter is in the IJ pump, I'll clean it out.

I did a search on the starter problems, I think that I'll order one from DB Electric
http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/p- ... -6570.aspx

NEW JOHN DEERE DIESEL TRACTOR STARTER HIGH TORQUE 140-915 6570

I saw the problems with the Airtex pump and fitting the new starter on your earlier post. I'll go with the Sofabex from Tisco.

Thanks again,
Mark

[jdemaris]

Now that I know where the filter is in the IJ pump, I'll clean it out.

If you look at the diagram I posted for the injection pump filter - note the item # 128. It's a black rubber plug that should be in that assembly when you pull it out. If it's not - it's been blown out. It was a problem and the repair kits eliminate it and replace with a steel bushing. If it IS blown out, several parts will fall out of the assembly when you remove it. That rubber plug holds the fuel pressure regulator piston and spring in place.

[Mark K]

Thanks for the heads up on the rubber plug. Maybe I should order the repair kit and have it in hand before I take out the filter.

[Mark K]

I ordered my new starter it is scheduled for delivery today and the new lifter pump should be in tomorrow or Monday.

Today I bypassed the lifter pump which runs off of the cam and the existing fuel lines. I hooked a 12 volt fuel pump to an external fuel container and then to the fuel filter assemble. I did not get any further along. The tractor will start and run for 30 seconds to 10 minutes then starve for fuel and shut off. Bled everything as needed, I have a clear return fuel line, I even tried it with the return line disconnected, same results, no crud coming out of the pump, the glass check valve is clear and working fine. I then hooked the electric fuel pump line right to the injector pump, I got the same results. I again checked to make sure that I had 12 volt at the IJ pump, even when the tractor was starving for fuel and shut off. When I was all finished I hooked everything back up the way that it came from the factory with some hope that it would work. It did not, still starts right up the starves for fue and shuts off. I also made sure that there were not any obstructions (mice nest) in the air filter, it was clear.

I also checked the mesh screen in the IJ pump, it was nice and clean and the black rubber part #128 was in perfect shape.

It is looking to me like it time to pull the IJ pump. Any other suggestions or advice?

The vent in my fuel tank was / is clear.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mark K]

I decided to wait to pull the IJ pump until I install the new lifter pump. Today, when I ran the electric fuel pump line to the IJ pump, I noticed that the IJ pump was emptying the in-line filter. I think that the electric fuel pump was not pumping enough gpm to keep up with the IJ pump. The electric pump is rated for 34 gal/hr and the stock cam lifter pump is rated for 45 gal/hr. I am trying to eliminate all simple possibilities of the problem before I pull my IJ pump.

I called around today for prices on IJ pumps, they were all $600-$700 with my good core. If I do pull the pump, I'll rebuild it my self to save the $$$.
I looked on the JD parts site and it looks like I will need kit # AR34612, (it looks to be seals & gaskets). Is there anything else that I should replace when I tear into the pump. What books / manuals are there for rebuilding the pump? I have a Roosa Master JDB331AL2405, 2500 pump.

Thanks for any and all help,

Mark

[jtrichard]

hi there is a re-builder on ebay that has that pump for 320.00 serch for... roosa master db ... and it should come up for you

[Mark K]

Thanks, I found the e-bay listing.
The listings are for rebuilding pumps. You send them your pump, they rebuild it and send it back to you. $320 is much better than $600-$700. While on E-bay I also found the pump rebuild parts kits, only $26-$30. Does anyone know if there are different qualities of rebuild parts kits, are the E-bay kits safe or should I purchase the kit from JD?

Thanks,
Mark

[jtrichard]

those are seal/gasket kits only.... if you have head problems then you have more problems and i would think your pump would need calibration checked at least after new seals just my two cents