Build My Own Track Shop??

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dmlinton
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Build My Own Track Shop??

Post by dmlinton » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:36 am

So, from the wild assed idea department, I have decided to take a look at putting together my own track shop speciallizing in tracks for my own crawlers (40C, 420C & 440IC).

I think I read somewhere that about a sixty ton press is needed to remove/install pins and bushings. Princesss Auto, for example, has 35 ton pneumatically operated bottle jacks so two of them should give me something approaching 60 tons. Just need to build the press rack and have some dies made.

The big question is, is there anywhere to reliably source pins and bushings? What are the pros and cons of having some custom made?

It has also occured to me that track links with a lot of wear on the roller side could be built up with weld, like we used to do with moldboard plow points, and then milled to get a smooth surface. Any comments on this?

I was at an old JD crawler yard last Saturday and, out of mountains of parts, they had just four track links (with pads) for my 420C. I took them all along with a hood for my 440IC.
Dennis
1955 40C, 1957 420C, 1960 440IC, 1952 MTW, 1950 M, 1960 Mack B-30

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 am

Hi,

Weld is pretty hard. Mill bits won't last long. What is usually used is a surface grinder for something like that. It would be a lot of work to build up, then grind down each link. But, then since it is for your own stuff, time cost does not factor in, does it?

The same goes for all the rest. You could acquire manually operated machines to make pins and bushings and all the rest. With the exception of the track chain press, everything else has a multitude of other uses once you have it on hand. :)

In these days of CNC, manually operated machines are cheap. What you need is a decent shop building with a good concrete floor with enough space for several machines and your press. Put in an overhead rail system for a chain hoist, and you are set. You could rig up a 'crawler port' in front of the shop door to yank a machine apart under, if you don't have enough inside shop space.

I have a good bit of what would be needed, old machines left over from my dad's machine shop. All but a track press and a surface grinder. I do have a grinder attachment for my Bridgeport mill, but would want a real surface grinder if I wanted to do more than a couple pieces. It is not built all that tough. But, I digress....

My problem is my stuff is split between two buildings, and it can be a pain at times with more running between the two than actually working on the project.

Anyway, yes, you can make these parts, and rebuild these parts, as long as *you* do it and don't have to pay for all the time it takes.

Stan
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JimAnderson
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track shop

Post by JimAnderson » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:04 am

This subject has come up many times before.A lot of us here have thought about having pins and bushings made.Some have actually done
the reseach and decided that it was not cost effective.John Deere has
pins and bushings available for lots of money per item.I got a few sets
of aftermarket pins and bushings from my dealer. All the bushings
were standard sized and don't press in tightly.They no longer can get
Berco sets so P and Bs are at times hard to get if not impossible.
Rails can be welded up and machined back to size.This was standard
practice back in the day.Problem is that the links get stretched where
the pins and bushings go in.
This is the issues of parts and doesn't address the problem of finding
a press.If you get a chance to see a track press being used you may
reconsider building your own.
Like Stan says all you ask can be done.It is a lot of work!
Luck JimAnderson

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Lavoy
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Post by Lavoy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:50 am

Yes pins and bushings can be made, no you can't afford it if done properly. I have been working on it for about 4 years now, just now getting somewhere in the process.
I made a press once, got one pin out, loaded the rails in the pickup and took them to a track shop and scrapped the press. Having your own tooling made will cost more than the labor to have every set of rails you own done in a track shop. Sorry to be pessimistic, but I have been at this for over 25 years, and there are just no simple, easy, or cheap answers to some of the questions.
Lavoy
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dmlinton
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Post by dmlinton » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:55 am

Thanks for the input folks. It looks to me that track parts are becoming limiting factors keeping these old crawlers functional. Out of three I have, one is servicable, one is parked due to track wear and one has very good tracks (that would bring twice what I paid for the whole tractor). I am interested in providing myself an alternative as well as to offer an option to other owners.

What I need are any track info that would be useful such as:
  • -welding electrode type and maybe welding procedure for building up rails,
    -dimensional and metalurgical specs for rails, bushings & pins, and,
    -hardening and tempering info for pins that might be out there.
I think all would agee that we can spend hours trying to get an old crawler to fire, start and run so I do not see that spending hours putting tracks back in shape so they can be driven as being any different.
Dennis
1955 40C, 1957 420C, 1960 440IC, 1952 MTW, 1950 M, 1960 Mack B-30

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jtrichard
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Post by jtrichard » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:56 am

if you have never seen one here is a very NICE one hate to know how much it cost http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw6ljUYBs5g and another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxxOFBgP1II
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

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dmlinton
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Post by dmlinton » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:59 am

Lavoy wrote:Yes pins and bushings can be made, no you can't afford it if done properly. I have been working on it for about 4 years now, just now getting somewhere in the process.
I made a press once, got one pin out, loaded the rails in the pickup and took them to a track shop and scrapped the press. Having your own tooling made will cost more than the labor to have every set of rails you own done in a track shop. Sorry to be pessimistic, but I have been at this for over 25 years, and there are just no simple, easy, or cheap answers to some of the questions.
Lavoy
I thought I have been reading where getting track parts has become nearly impossible? I have no interest in re-inventing the wheel. Just thought I was contemplating a way to fill a void. As I said previously, I bought a long standing old JD crawler company's entire inventory of four track links for my 420C. I think it takes a grand total of 62 links. There were not complete tracks to be had.
Dennis
1955 40C, 1957 420C, 1960 440IC, 1952 MTW, 1950 M, 1960 Mack B-30

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dmlinton
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Post by dmlinton » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:09 am

jtrichard wrote:if you have never seen one here is a very NICE one hate to know how much it cost http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw6ljUYBs5g and another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxxOFBgP1II
Nice! Probably a little more sophisticated than I had in mind. I am thinking more along the lines of replacing the sledge hammer and punch and adding a bushing removal/installation rig.
Dennis
1955 40C, 1957 420C, 1960 440IC, 1952 MTW, 1950 M, 1960 Mack B-30

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:42 am

A couple of additional points:

- As discussed in previous threads, anything other than a bona fide track press is risking your safety. Those pins can ricochet out of there and kill or seriously injure you if using a shop built press that is not designed for tracks. The commercial track presses have shields and other safety features and are still dangerous.
-There are a number of threads on this board that specifically discuss building up rails or other undercarriage components like rollers. Because these components were hardened in the factory to a minimum Rockwell hardness, it takes special types of welding rod/wire and "work hardening" rod/wire is recommended.
-The factory information for dimensions/hardness/etc. does exist but can be hard to come by. At one point in the past someone shared a factory drawing showing dimensions and process info. for a sprocket on one of these crawlers. I'm guessing that wasn't supposed to be out in the general domain and not sure others are out there or not.

if you use the search function and look for "work hardening" you should find many of these threads.
Last edited by Tigerhaze on Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JimAnderson
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Tracks

Post by JimAnderson » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:42 am

If you rerim your current sprockets with 350 ones you can run 350 rails.
My local dealer offered me new 350 tracks complete for around $1600
per side for non sealed units.That is not cheap but all new components.
One of the posters here adapted rubber tracks on his 420c.That was a
neat setup.Luck,JimAnderson

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Undercarriage Parts and Rebuilding

Post by JWB Contracting » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:46 am

Yes, undercarriage parts are getting difficult to find. If someone could acquire the tooling from Berco used to manufacture rails for older Deeres and then wanted to place an order for a 1,000 sets of rails then finding someone in China to build them might not be a problem.

I was very disappointed a few years ago when I wanted to buy new Deere undercarriage for my own 350C that I'm in the process of restoring. All that is available is aftermarket idlers with holes in them. I finally scavanged enough parts from for sale machines to end up with all Deere 85% or better. Although I just got in a set of near new pads, I'm saving them in case I run out of projects and want to spend a day swapping pads.

We just don't get good used stuff in any more and with my dad retiring from the utility construction business we are going to get some time to rebuild and restore some of the crawlers he has been gathering up over the past 30 years. No sense selling hard to get parts when we have use for them.
Jason Benesch

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Post by Lavoy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:58 pm

Maybe I misunderstood what you mean, and I guess I don't understand what void it is you are trying to fill.
I have been contemplating what you are contemplating for 4 years or more, and have done substantially more than contemplate. I have talked to more people than I can throw a stick at, and after 4 years, I am finally getting to the end of the search as far as getting pins and bushings manufactured. If my current source does not pan out, I am giving up and won't waste any further time and money trying to get them produced, I'll just get them from Deere when nee be. The last quote I had from a manufacturer near me that could do the work was in the neighborhood of $3500/set to do a 420. Deere is a little over $2000, so kind of a waste of my time getting the quote. At times, I can still source 420 pins and bushings at about $1200 set. At that price, the interest I have from customers is somewhere close to zero, so I don't bother stocking them any more.
As far as a track press, I have a track press and install pins and bushings. I did a set of MC last week, doing another this week, and another end of this month.
I built a homemade press, it didn't work, I scrapped it and bought an OTC Trackmaster track press and tooling. Last price I had on tooling from 15 years ago was $2500 per set, and you would need two sets.
You are correct that there are no new tracks available, and there hasn't been as far as two bolt for probably 30 years, and even if there were, there is NO market for them at what the current price would have to be. For the volume you are talking about, they would be $3000 per side at least for bare rails. No one is going to put $6000 worth of rails under a $3000 crawler.
Tracks, rollers and idlers are not machined after buildup. They are first built up with a base layer if really worn, then finished with a "work hardens" wire. As the crawler is run, the weld bead is hammered flat. As it flattens, it hardens, hence the "work hardens" term. Last I checked, it was available only in .064 wire, and in 1200lb spools or tubs for use in rail and roller buildup machines. Rail buildup machines would turn a 420 track into a molten puddle, they were never meant to work on stuff this small. They also will not weld up the sides of the links, only the surface the rollers run on. Using hardface wire on rails or rollers will not work, it will shatter and peel off in really short order, but likely not before destroying the rollers and idlers.
Lavoy
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Post by gus » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:18 pm

Lavoy wrote:Maybe I misunderstood what you mean, and I guess I don't understand what void it is you are trying to fill.
I have been contemplating what you are contemplating for 4 years or more, and have done substantially more than contemplate. I have talked to more people than I can throw a stick at, and after 4 years, I am finally getting to the end of the search as far as getting pins and bushings manufactured. If my current source does not pan out, I am giving up and won't waste any further time and money trying to get them produced, I'll just get them from Deere when nee be. The last quote I had from a manufacturer near me that could do the work was in the neighborhood of $3500/set to do a 420. Deere is a little over $2000, so kind of a waste of my time getting the quote. At times, I can still source 420 pins and bushings at about $1200 set. At that price, the interest I have from customers is somewhere close to zero, so I don't bother stocking them any more.
As far as a track press, I have a track press and install pins and bushings.

I did a set of MC last week, doing another this week, and another end of this month.
I built a homemade press, it didn't work, I scrapped it and bought an OTC Trackmaster track press and tooling. Last price I had on tooling from 15 years ago was $2500 per set, and you would need two sets.
You are correct that there are no new tracks available, and there hasn't been as far as two bolt for probably 30 years, and even if there were, there is NO market for them at what the current price would have to be. For the volume you are talking about, they would be $3000 per side at least for bare rails. No one is going to put $6000 worth of rails under a $3000 crawler.
Tracks, rollers and idlers are not machined after buildup. They are first built up with a base layer if really worn, then finished with a "work hardens" wire. As the crawler is run, the weld bead is hammered flat. As it flattens, it hardens, hence the "work hardens" term. Last I checked, it was available only in .064 wire, and in 1200lb spools or tubs for use in rail and roller buildup machines. Rail buildup machines would turn a 420 track into a molten puddle, they were never meant to work on stuff this small. They also will not weld up the sides of the links, only the surface the rollers run on. Using hardface wire on rails or rollers will not work, it will shatter and peel off in really short order, but likely not before destroying the rollers and idlers.
Lavoy
I have an extra set of worn tracks sitting outside (maybe 2 depending on what I do...). After reading this and thinking it over, maybe not a bad idea to just stash them in the back of the shed instead of scrapping them!!!

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Post by wizner85 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:44 pm

http://www.gzcasting.com/en/ENDefault.aspx
Cheapest place with best quality investment castings for your rails. I make stainless steel investment castings here all the time and they are 7 bucks a lbs or so for stainless small parts in small quantities. Prolly 2 or 3 bucks a pound for steel in small quantities. Buy a couple thousand and prices drop to less than the price of a pair of socks.

http://www.whwzcf.com/en/
We use these guys for forging and machining. But our shafts are a couple inches to a couple of feet in diameter and support static loads in the 300 to 400 ton range.

Only place you'll be able to afford making in my opinion is China, or maybe Turkey/ Eastern Europe. I'm sure that is where Berco is making all their parts.
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Post by Lavoy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:29 pm

Berco is still in the game and producing in Italy, but last I heard, they are actually for sale. Their prices have gotten so high that they are not competitive in many cases. It has been years since I could buy anything Berco. Deere was starting to move away from them a couple years ago according to some industry people I know. They have been making Deere undercarriage for 30 years or so, I would think that would be a big bite out of their business if they lost Deere.
I save all decent rails, I would definitely save anything you have that is good. If you have the space to save them, no loss in doing so. Hopefully I can get pins and bushings done so it is more economically feasible to rebush them.
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