Injection pump for JD350B

[Glen Breaks]

It appears that the injection pump on my 74 JD350B has packed it in.

The machine still runs but will not rev up much above 1500 RPM as it misfires at this speed. Initially I thought it might be a dirty fuel filter causing the problem, so I changed that to no avail.
Now the pump is pumping diesel into the crankcase. I noticed the oil level was rising so I drained the oil pan and changed the oil. The pan was about half full of diesel.

I called John deere for a replacement pump yesterday ,but they say it is an obsolete item.
The numbers on the pump are JDB3312556
Also, from the tag AR55691 and 2093324 plus an RPM number2500

[jdemaris]

It appears that the injection pump on my 74 JD350B has packed it in.


The pan was about half full of diesel.

I called John deere for a replacement pump yesterday ,but they say it is an obsolete item.
The numbers on the pump are JDB3312556
Also, from the tag AR55691 and 2093324 plus an RPM number2500

That pump is not obsolete and you can buy any part you want for it - including a complete, "rebuilt" or new pump.
Whatever dealer told you that does not know what they're talking about.
The replacment pump for your 350 is Deere # AR69817 and is $1639 outright, or $1439 with a good core. It is a rebuilt pump. That is for a rebuilt pump with a new driveshaft included. To buy a bare pump with no shaft, you have to get something like a Deere # AR49899. Personally, I can't think of any good reason of paying that kind of money - not even for a brand new (not rebuilt) pump.

The same basic pump on your 350 is used on many things, including new military Humvees with GM-based 6.5 diesel V-8s. They use DB2s which are very similar to your DB.

Why don't you just fix your pump? If has certain wear items inside, all cheap and easy to get. Your pump probably has a shattered plastic governor dampener, and a ridge worn into the bushing at the drive end of the pump where the driveshaft seals ride. In most cases as you describe, you need an $8 bronze bushing and a $13 seal kit. That pump, once off and sitting on a workbench takes an hour to fix and reseal. I've done many out in the woods or field in less than a day, start to finish. Pump off, apart on my tailgate, back together, and back on the tractor. We also had a pump shop at our dealership with a test stand - but many failed pumps got fixed on-site, at the job.

The pumps that Deere sells for over $1400 are "rebuilt pumps", usually with less then $50 in new parts installed.

[Glen Breaks]

Thanks for the reply and I like your suggestion on fixing the pump myself. I'll take your advice and give it a shot. I guess as it stands, I have nothing to lose if I screw up, other than some time and maybe a small amount for parts.

The dealer who told me the pump was an obsolete item was Brandt Tractor. They are the JD construction equipment dealer for Western Canada. I live very close to the US border and often go down to the JD dealer in Lynden, Washington to obtain farm tractors parts that are not readily available at the Canadian JD farm equipment dealer. Perhaps it is the same scenario with JD construction equipment.

On a side note, I just replaced the hydraulic cylinder packing on my 1650 JD backhoe attachment which fits on my 2440 JD wheel tractor. I blew this same packing about ten years ago and the seal kit cost $87.23 at John Deere (in Canada) This time I bought the packing online from Baum hydraulics for a cost of $15.13 .

Is there a similar supplier (non-JD) of Roosa Master injection pump parts for the 350B?

[jdemaris]

Thanks for the reply and I like your suggestion on fixing the pump myself. I'll take your advice and give it a shot.

. . . the seal kit cost $87.23 at John Deere (in Canada) This time I bought the packing online from Baum hydraulics for a cost of $15.13 .

Is there a similar supplier (non-JD) of Roosa Master injection pump parts for the 350B?

With many generic parts on Deere tractors et. al. - they are usually available much cheaper from other sources. I've been buying from Baum for years. Besides cylinder packings, they also sell splined shafts and couplers that Deere crawlers use in front for hydraulic pump drives.

In regard to parts for your injection pump, they are available all over the world - but with one slight problem. The Stanadyne/Roosamaster rotary pump was invented by a guy named Vernon Roosa from Connecticutt. Once his pump became sucessfull because of its compact size, CAV and Bosch in Europe purchased rights to copy it and use their own versions in Europe and Canada. There were non-competition agreements made. Roosamaster agreed not sell their pumps and parts overseas - and CAV and Bosch agreed not to sell in the USA. That was years ago; not sure where it all stands now. Roosamaster/Stanadyne also make Moen faucets.

In regard to you fixing your pump. That's not necessarily my advice. The rotary injection pump is bascially, just a high pressure hydraulic pump with added controls for advancing timing with RPM, and a distributor section. As with anything that has many moving parts, you need good repair info and some skills. If you have them, and get the info needed, you'll do fine. If not, you could still find someone to do it. Some pump shops might do it for $300 - $400 which is much cheaper than going through Deere. The main expense for a "rebuilt" pump is the labor charge and setup time on the test stand. In your case, you don't need a test stand since you have an engine to put the pump on. Any adjustments needed can be done on the running engine.

Best source for aftermarket parts for sale to anybody is from US Diesel in Forth Worth, Texas. They provide a complete, on-line Stanadyne parts catalog, for free. They sell OEM and aftermarket Spaco pump parts. I've been using Spaco for years with no complaints. Call - 800-328-0037
Or go to: www.usdiesel.com

Deere tech manual that covers your pump is SM-2045. It's available in reprint from many tractor websties for $20-$30.

[Glen Breaks]

Thanks, I'll get the tech manual before I attempt the repair.
I do a fair bit of mechanical work on my old motorcycles, two 60 year old Vincents and a couple of 40 year old Nortons, so maybe some of that experience will cross-over.
The only injection pump I have ever taken apart was a very simple unit for a single cylinder Yanmar marine diesel. Some dirt somehow made it's way thru the filter and into the pump. I was able to clean it and put it back together Ok, at least the engine ran fine afterward, much to my amazement.
There is a large shop in the area that specializes in rebuilding of injection pumps. They estimated that the cost to do the fix would likely be around $900. Not sure I want to spend that much on the old girl, but I would sure miss having a crawler loader with 4in1 around, so hopefully I can manage the job OK myself(with a little more help from this site!)

[jdemaris]

I do a fair bit of mechanical work on my old motorcycles, two 60 year old Vincents and a couple of 40 year old Nortons, so maybe some of that experience will cross-over.

I bought a Norton brand new in 1970. It had the "Combat" engine and cost nine-hundred something dollars. Wish I still had it. I still have my BSA Rocket III 750 and a Royal Enfield Meteor Minor 500 twin.

The only injection pump I have ever taken apart was a very simple unit for a single cylinder Yanmar marine diesel.

The big difference between that Yanmar pump and your Stanadyne is this. Yanmar uses one pump per cylinder which greatly extends the life of an injection pump. If fires a lot less per RPMs. The Stanadyne is a distributor type pump and that means there is only one little injection pump feeding all the cylinders, regardless if there are three, four, six, or eight of them. The math is obvious. One little pump feeding four cylinders does four times the work as a four cylinder engine with four separate pumps. In-line pumps also have one pump per cylinder but have their own camshafts built in. A rotary more complicated since - besides the high pressure injection pump itself, it must be coupled to a distributor that takes the one fuel charge and finds a way to send it to the different cylinders. Kind of like the distributor cap and rotor on a gas engine. The distributor section of the injection pump is the most expensive part and the most subject to problems since it's built with extremely tight tolerances. Usually, if it's bad, an injection pump is not worth fixing. That's why most pump shops, if you read the small print, will NOT give you core credit if the distributor area of the pump is bad.

There is a large shop in the area that specializes in rebuilding of injection pumps. They estimated that the cost to do the fix would likely be around $900.

In my opinion, $900 is a complete rip-off. Most shops in my area will fix your pump for a flat-rate of $350-$450, as long as your head & rotor is OK. And, it sounds like your's is fine. If the pump is not siezed, and it starts when hot, it's OK. Keep in mind that pumps sold as "rebuilt" are NOT rebuilt - at least not according to my connotation of the word. Very few new parts are used. If you took a tractor engine apart, put in new gaskets, maybe new rings - but no new bearings, pistons, sleeves, etc. - would you call it "rebult?" I doubt it. But with pumps - it is the standard. In most cases, a DB or JDB pump needs $50 in new parts. And, an hour on the bench to take apart and put back together. Then, another hour if it must be put on a test-stand. And, maybe even another hour if it gets cleaned up and painted so it looks new. I've worked on three pump shops and we fixed pumps. But, it's been almost 20 years. Most pump shops today will NOT fix a pump. By that, I mean - it's ALL or NOTHING.
Right or wrong, that's the way it is. Most shops won't even test a pump for you even if it seems to be brand new. Obviously, there are exceptions to be found but I'm speaking generally. So, even if your pump only needs a $10 part, you wind up paying $300 - $1500, regardless.

From what you described about your pump - it's likely you only need a seal kit, and a new bronze bushing. Your plastic weight dampener surely broken, and small pieces of plastic are plugging the housing pressure regulator on top of your pump. It is the little fitting that screws into the top cover where the return fuel line hooks to. If you removed the fitting and drilled it out - your engine would probably come alive and run great. Many have done that. Problem is, eventually the pump will self-destruct being run that way. May take a month, and may take two years - but it will happen. The fuel leak into the crankcase is from a worn bronze bushing in the front of the pump. It is what the two umbrella pump driveshaft seals ride against.

For added insurance, I'd add new fue pump vanes and a new housing pressure regulator. Also, keep in mind that the #1 failure area of your pump is the plastic governor weight vibration dampener. They fail like clockwork - with time and/or use. 10-15 year life span. The new seal kit will come with a new dampener - but . . . you can also spend and extra $40 and eliminate it with an update.
General Motors and Ford used the same dampener in their diesels up to 1985 - in the 6.2 and 6.9 V-8 diesels. They failed even faster in cars and trucks then they do in tractors due to the higher underhood temps. Subsequently, Stanadyne came out with a mandatory update for road vehicles in mid 1985. The new part fits your pump also - but many pump shops don't bother to install it on tractor pumps unless asked. Like I said, it's an extra $40 unless you find an old pump from a 6.2 or 6.9 diesel and rob the parts off it.

The seal kit you need is: Stanadyne # 24371 - Spaco U24371 $12.10

The brass bushing is called a "pilot tube" by Deere and Stanadyne.
Stanadyne # 16320 - Spaco U16320 $4.83

The pump vanes are Stanadyne 20803 - Spaco 09528. Probably cost around $15.

You also must have one special tool. In Deere applications, on your pump, there is one screw that you must remove to take the pump apart. It has six internal teeth and requires a Bristol wrench. Deere used to sell the wrench, and Stanadyne still does. It is Stanadyne # #15499
I bought half a dozen of them new not long ago for $5 each. You just have to look around. Funny that when the same pump is used on Ford and Allis Chalmers engines, the same screw is a standard hex Allen drive instead. Seems Deere ordered this special screw on purpose.

One other item that any Deere diesel owner ought to have is the plastic timing window. Without it, you'd probably never know if your timing advance is working correctly without some exspensive electronic equipment. You CAN buy a timing light adapter for $250 and use a gas engine timing light. Or, you can buy the plastic timing window for $5. Seems the $5 is a much better deal. The window is Stanadyne # 13366. I bought a bunch awhile back for $4 each, new. There have been several diesel supply places sell off old stock of new parts and tools. With the window - you remove the little steel rectangle-door from the side of your pump - and install the clear plastic degreed window in its place. Start your engine and run at various RPMs and see how far the timing marks move. There's an external trimmer screw facing out with a 7/16" (wrench size) lock nut on it that allows you to adjust. Deere is one of the few companies that offered this option.

Here are a few photos of the Bristol wrench, a timing window, a failed plastic dampener and what a new dampener ring looks like. The timing window photo is shown bolted to a DB2 pump that has a triangular window instead of a rectangle like your's has.

[Glen Breaks]

J Demaris, thanks once again for all of the detailed info and part numbers. I'll use this to make an order today.
I'm in the middle of a large re-fencing job here and the weather looks perfect for the next week, so perhaps when that is done all the stuff will be here and I can get on with the repair.

I was using the crawler for fence removal and some light clearing when the pump started to act up.
I'll have to use my wheel tractor instead.
The Crawler is so much better for this job though. It's fun to walk it up to an old post and yank it out with the 4 in one, drop it, then move to the next.
Using the tractor instead means either using a chain on each post or just shearing them off at ground level.

The Combat Commandos were an interesting bike. They had lots of problems when new (too much power for the bottom end) however with the conversion to superblend main bearings they can be made reliable.
The Royal Enfield twin is one bike I have always wanted, they have just a great looking engine.

I have a 1975 Norton Commando MK111 850 Interstate and a 1968 Norton 650SS. The 650SS is quite rare, only about thirty were built each year in Norton's race shop. All the engine internals were factory polished.
It's pretty quick for an old bike. Here's a photo, hopefully no one will mind a couple of MC photos on a crawler website! http://s402.photobucket.com/pbwidget.sw ... c9333b.pbw

[jdemaris]

Nice bikes. My Norton was very high-strung as compared to my Triumph 650 Tiger. Great running bike though. As I recall, it was one of the few British bikes with a rubber-mounted engine. My twin Tiger was a very simple and reliable bike but not near as fast as my Norton. I also had a three-cylinder Trident that was a piece of junk - like my BSA Rocket III.

I'll tell you a funny story - about making stupid mechanical mistakes - which I guess can be deemed relevant here in this forum.

Around 1969 I bought my 1959 Royal Enfield Meteor Minor Twin 500. It ran fine, but . . . I couldn't wait to take it all apart and rebuild it anyway. At the time, my biggest bike was a Honda 305 Super Hawk.

So, took the Enfield all apart. Had the jugs bored oversize, etc. etc. Had the engine apart to every last nut and bolt. Finally, got it all together and . . . it started awful - and ran awful. Very low on power. I soon got disgusted with it and sold it to a local drunk for $75. Keep in mind, this was 1969 and in New Jersey. I later moved to Vermont, and then New York. Much later, in 1989, I was sent on a distant road call from the John Deere dealership I was working at. We had a log skidder in New Jersey to service, which was pretty weird. I was sent down there and found myself 20 miles from my hometown of Cresskill, NJ. So, I wandered over there - and found out the old drunk was still alive - but barely. He was totally out of his mind. I got talking to him and mentioned my Royal Enfield. He then told me he had completely restored it and rode it every day. Like I said, he was out of his mind. I soon left, and spotted handlebars sticking out of some weeds in a swamp behind his apartment. I walked over - and it was my 59 Royal Enfield. Right where it was left in 1969. Never moved an inch. I went back in, did some talking about it, and the drunk gave it to me. Yeah, maybe I'm guilty of dealing unfairly with a guy with no mind left. But, he was later evicted and the bike would of been junked or buried on-site. I put the bike in the back of my service truck along with a basket-case Harley three-wheeled ice-cream "truck."
Later got the Enfield home and spent a lot of time getting it apart. Engine was siezed but the chrome on the bike still good. British chrome is amazing.

To make my long story a bit shorter. I found out that back in 1969, I'd put the intake camshaft in the exhaust side, and the exhaust camshaft into the intake side. So, the cams were switched. Now, many years later I corrected the stupid mistake I'd made. Got all done, and the bike starts and runs perfect. I kind of like the Royal Enfield neutral-finder foot lever. Also found out the bike is still being made in India and is the official Indian army motorcycle. A company in Indian purchased the American Indian motorcycle logo which is also wierd. For a while, Royal Enfield became Indian Enfield.

[Eric.MacLeod]

nice story but i cant sleep without knowing what happened to the harley servi car? please tell me your sick off looking at it and would like me to have it!! Eric..

[tmoffitt]

as everyone is telling you you can get the parts to rebuild the pump. i just had mine rebuild about 3 weeks ago and the guy charged $350 so if you don't want to tear into it yourself you can possibly find someone to do it for you that is no where near the cost of a deere rebuilt pump.

[jdemaris]

as everyone is telling you you can get the parts to rebuild the pump. i just had mine rebuild about 3 weeks ago and the guy charged $350 so if you don't want to tear into it yourself you can possibly find someone to do it for you that is no where near the cost of a deere rebuilt pump.

$275 - $350 has always been the standard fee for pulling a DB or JDB pump apart and repairing it - usually not an exchange - the customer gets the original pump back. Still plenty of shops around that do it. Several advertise on Ebay. But, many shops are going the "exchange" flat-fee route instead.

With your pump, it probably needed less than $40 parts and at most, two hours labor to fix. So, the pump guy made $150 per hour, and you still got a pretty good price. But, as I said before, nobody gets a truly "rebuilt" pump in that price range. A pump gets torn apart, visibly inspected for metal wear, maybe a few small hard parts renewed, and put back together with new o-rings and gaskets. It's patched up and cablibrated, that's all. The main wear item in those pumps is the head & rotor and is rarely renewed since it's so expensive. So, very often pumps sold as "rebuilt" come with the majority of moving parts having many of thousands of hours on them. That is not what I call "rebuilt." To me, rebuilt is when all common wear items are renewed in some way - just as an engine is rebuilt with new or bored cylinders, pistons, rings, valves, seats, bearings, etc. If someone took a beat-up engine, took it apart, cleaned it, maybe honed it and installed new rings, ground the valves, and put new gaskets in - they'd probably have a hard time getting away with calling it "rebuilt."

There are rare occasions when . . . you buy an exchange pump that had been previously completely trashed and DID indeed get a new head & rotor. But - that's rare and there is no way to predicit it - unless you know the pump-guy personally. Sometimes, when that does happen, you're getting a pump, basically at cost with the seller making no profit on that one pump. Overall, does not matter since they make so much on the others. That's the whole concept of selling exchange pumps for a flat rate.
I do see often though - if you read the small print - exchange pump cores will not be accepted if they have bad head & rotors.

Fuel injectors are starting to get marketed the same way - and often it is a total rip-off. So, ask questions. Deere uses pencil fuel injectors in most engines - and they cannot be rebuilt - period. So, when you see rebuilt pencil injectors advertised, you'd better ask questions.

Full size injectors are a different story (like used on 1010s, 2010s, some old 4020s, etc.). Unlike pencil injectors, the large injectors have replaceable tips. The often only cost $7 each new. Put a new tip in, and the injector is as good as new. Problem is - now - even with them some places are selling as "rebuilt" and they do NOT have new tips. Just cleaned and lapped and reset. That is a total rip-off. I just caught a large diesel shop doing it last week on Ebay. They sell "rebuilt" injectors with NO new parts, and sell "brand new" injectors that are rebuilt with new tips only. So, I wonder - what does this place call an injector when it actually IS new? I called them asked, but didn't get anywhere with my questions.

[Larry 8N75381]

Hi Guys,

I just joined the board to I could tap into the expertise I have just been reading in this thread. It sounds like a lot will be applicable to my problem but I will supply my specific information to be sure.

Problem, engine starts easily and immediately dies. After much checking etc. I find that the back flow valve on the top of the pump is getting plugged with crud. Clean the crud out and it will run fine for 5 to 15 minutes and then die from the valve getting plugged again. The crud has a fibrous texture and has a reddish cast, makes me think it is phenolic like I see in electronic equipment. The pump has the markings;
STANADYNE
JDB331MD 2797 250
5132319 AR49899

Can you point me to a place to get a manual for this pump? That seems the first thing to get. I am fairly mechanically adept, well taught by my dad who was a truck mechanic in his youth. I have the tool box he made with all his tools, Snap-On 5/8" drive sockets, Cresent wrenches from 4" to 15", wire cleaners for old carbide lamps, etc.

My JD350 Loader was owned by a JD mechanic for a dealership here. He "improved" it some by changing the forward/reverse shifter from the dash to the left side arm rest/battery box, like the JD350B I was told. He also put in a transmission oil pressure gauge from a 550. And it has a steel canopy/cage added. I think it would be nice to have a ripper since there is a lot of rock in the soil on my farm. BUT, that will have to wait until I get a better garage/shop built first.

Regards,
Larry

PS I have an early Oliver OC-4 Dozer that I would like to restore some day - need that garage/shop built!!!

[Lavoy]

I hope to have new reproduction injection pump manuals soon, am working on it right now. I will post as soon as I get them in.
Lavoy

[Larry 8N75381]

Thanks, Lavoy

I tried to reply to you yesterday but had computer glitches so gave up.

I have the feeling the I am going to have to pull the injection pump off my JD350 to see what is going on inside. To that end, I spent today making a pair of angle iron "props" to put on the lift piston rod to hold the bucket up while I am removing the pump. I got done too near dark to take pictures, but will sometime in the future.

Are there any things that I should "Watch out" for when I take the pump off? I have had several things apart that had "surprises" inside, like springs that jump out, and then there is the end cap on the starter on my 8N that pulls off when you try to take the starter off. I had to make a little tool to hold the brushes out while I put it back together.

Regards,
Larry

[jdemaris]

Are there any things that I should "Watch out" for when I take the pump off?

Depends on what pump is on your engine.

Early 350s can have the small round CDC or CBC pumps , or ...
longer rectangular DB or JDB pumps.

They all differ in the way they are mounted and the way they come off.

CDC and CBC pump require taking the inspection plate off the timing cover on the front ofs the engine. You then reach in and carefully remove the three special shear bolts and center bolt and retainer cap. Pump comes off with driveshaft still inside of it. Turn engine over by hand and get the timing pin in the pump to fall into the "locator" hole. Then remove. At this time, engine will have #1 piston at TDC of compression stroke.
Keep in mind that NO new parts are available for these pumps. They were obsolete over 20 years ago. Deere sells change-over kits to install the JDB style pumps.

Now, if you have the longer, rectangular DBor JDB pump - the mounting will differ depending if . . . the pump was original, or later installed from a Deere change-over kit. Original pump is held on by two 3/8" nuts (takes a 9/16" wrench). Change-over pump is held on by a horseshoe shaped bracked. Either way, the pump is removed from the engine, but the driveshaft does NOT come with it. Driveshaft stays attached to the engine. Main thing to remember when removing any DB or JDB pump is - tie the throttle back to "full" position before removing. This holds the governor weights in place when you pull the pump away from and off the driveshaft. DB and JDB pumps use timing lines instead of a timing pin like the C pumps have. Remove the little rectangular timing window, and turn engine by hand until the #1 piston is at TDC compression stroke and the two timing lines are lined up.
When you reinstall the DB or JDB pump, you have to slide the pump over the driveshaft and it's very easy to ruin one of the seals. The shaft has two rubber umbrella seals - each facing different directions. One keeps engine oil in the engine and faces the engine. The other keeps diesel fuel in the injection pump and faces the pump. That one will want to fold over and get ruined and you need to compress it when sliding the pump on and do not force it at all. You can buy a special compressor if wanted for less then $10 that is made for the job.
You also might find you need to take a cheap 9/16" open-end wrench, heat it and bend it to get to the bottom nut to get the pump off. Of, buy a high-priced Proto or Snap On unit.