440 ICD Engine shutting down.

jtrichard · Post by **jtrichard** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:01 pm

its not hard to make one of the restrictor fittings if one of the guys here can tell you what the (drill size) is then fill the inside of a fitting with solder and drill it out

whiteclipse16 · Post by **whiteclipse16** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:04 am

Thank you very much gentlemen for the clarification on that.
I have those elbows on my head. I'm afraid to take the "restrictor" out to make sure it is indeed a restrictor because they seem brittle. (I'm assuming this because I broke the one elbow at the fuel pump )

chartelltractor · Post by **chartelltractor** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:55 pm

It sshould be a steady stream--you got pump trouble or air on the suction side--the restricted fitting screwa into the head and is usually an elbow but could be a straight fitting altheough I havent seen one on this JD application. Dip your suction line in another fuel source( glass jar) so you can see it go down with use and start it up-- that will tell you if it is the tank or farther down stream--dont matter if you cleaned the tank, eliminate one item at a time till you fine it.

Charlie-----chartelltractor

parkmanaa · Post by **parkmanaa** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:10 pm

Will try to bring everyone up to date on our shutdown problem after 4 or 5 minutes run-time.
As mentioned in original post, this 440 ICD's GM engine was completely overhauled last year (sleeves, pistons, rings, all bearings, head trued,
new guides and valves). Since that overhaul it has run very little.
We didn't do this overhaul, an retird diesel mechanic did it for us.

In the last couple of weeks we have:
- Disassembled, cleaned and reassembled the two injectors.

- Installed an overhaul kit in the diesel fuel pump, and new fuel filter.

- Took fuel tank off, made sure it was clean as possible, fresh diesel.

- Verified it does have a restrictor elbow in the line head to tank line, and
verified fuel is coming thru the line back to the tank.

- Verified it has strong suction on inlet of blower.

- Thinking the governor may be shutting it down, started it, set at fairly
high RPM, and watched governor action. Nothing happens when it is in
process of shutting itself down.

That's all I can think of to date. Engine starts relatively easy, sounds good, seems to have good power, not a lot of smoke, BUT BETWEEN 4 AND 5 MINUTES IT STARTS LOSING POWER AND SHUTS DOWN !! ! !

When we disassembled and cleaned the injectors we inspected each internal part and none appeared to be worn, but that is nothing more than our visual. I have no problem buying a couple of rebuilt injectors if I had reasonable belief that is the problem, but............

My maintenance guy and I don't claim to be diesel mechanics, but thought we could figure this one out. We have just about run out of ideas. We are sue it is getting both diesel and air, but must not be getting there at the right time or in the right quantity.

As usual, any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks

whiteclipse16 · Post by **whiteclipse16** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:33 pm

Just throwing this out there as a long shot, but is it possible that at the 4 to 5 min. mark when it is shutting down, the engine is getting up to temp. At this time maybe there is a seal bad somewhere and when the block and head are hot they start expanding and something is opening up and leaking.
Like I said, a long shot, but it's an idea.

440 iron popper · Post by **440 iron popper** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:43 pm

Even the things that look OK can be wrong! I would put a pressure gauge on the fuel system to have a number. Seeing it pouring out of a line is OK but is the pressure sufficient and not dying over time? What kind of fuel shut off mechanism is on the 2-53? Is it OK? Returning to fuel off position by itself? Defective solenoid or something? Fuel-Air-Compression that's all it needs. You have everything cause it runs fine for a while. Fuel looks like the suspect.

We are rebuilding a V12 in a boat. We spent 2 weeks down there already... supposed to end tomorrow. On the hundreds bolts, parts ......name it, that we installed, One o-ring rolled and got cut during assembly of the oil cooler. You can not see it while pushing the part in the other. You assume it's ok but... After 15 gallons of antifreeze added we saw this red spot on the floor... Things like that happens from time to time. Good Luck! I hope you find the gremlin soon and enjoy a 440 ride.

JD440ICD2006 · Post by **JD440ICD2006** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:11 pm

This is always like shooting in to the woods at night and hoping something runs out in front of the bullet at the proper time.

I believe you have a fuel problem that is obviuosly developing as the engine begins to heat.
The 2-53 should have between 50 and 75 PSI on the line from the pump to the head. You may need to place a calibrated gauge in there and watch what happens as the engine begins to warm up. It could be a fuel pump seal that was not seated just right, could be a line somewhere sucking air but is not otherwise leaking that you can see.

As another poster indicated, it could also be the head. If those little o-rings or the outside seal is not all in the exact spot when the head goes on, it will give you fits. It may seal when cold but leak as it heats.
You are getting air, and it only changes based on engine speed. If blower seals leak, you get blue smoke or worse yet, a run away due to it burning the oil that slips past.

Scottyb · Post by **Scottyb** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:48 pm

How is the fuel tank vented? could you simply be getting a vacuum in the tank ?
Scottyb

JD440ICD2006 · Post by **JD440ICD2006** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:05 pm

A stopped up vent could possibly be a cause. However, the 2-53 has a live fuel system. The pump provides much more than enough fuel to the injectors, and the rest is pumped back to the tank.
So, it is unlike a gas system where it is gravity feed to the carb.

caribcanuck · Post by **caribcanuck** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:29 pm

I would be tempted to double check the fuel flow first make sure everything is flow in its proper direction first. Then start looking for anything that could restrict you fuel flow ,them detroits move alot of fuel it almost sounds like your suction line is not allowing the pump to draw a sufficient amount and its using up the fuel in the filters then stopping. Not saying I'm sure but just something to look at.

Randy

Scottyb · Post by **Scottyb** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:54 pm

I,m confused, if the injectors use some of the fuel then less is returned to the tank than is pumped out. How is that spent fuel compensated for regardless of how much is returned to the tank? Somewhere air will have to enter the tank to replace used fuel. I,m not sure that 5 min. of running time is enough to stall a diesel but I have seen this happen in a number of other situations and it takes usually about 5 min. And yes, it has always been in gas engines.
Scottyb

JD440ICD2006 · Post by **JD440ICD2006** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:07 pm

That is the problem with long distance trouble shooting.
I stated that "no venting" is a possibilty. Running under no load, the injectors are not going to use very much fuel at all. Consider running average loads, these engines will only burn around 2 gallons an hour.
That would be .03 gallons per minute. So if he has it under load for 5 minutes, the burn is around .15 of a gallon. Hard to see how there would not be enough air to allow the pump to continue to provide fuel for a while.
The pump returns around 1/2 gallon every minute at fast idle.
If it is not losing compression, and is getting proper air, it has to be a fuel issue.

Scottyb · Post by **Scottyb** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:20 pm

Another long shot but I once had a rubber fuel line that you could easily blow through, clear, no problems but if you sucked on it, the inner linings were separated and would collapse. The same thing happened to the air intake hose on my Range Rover classic. Both took some time to figure out.
I am grabbing at straws here but sometimes its the least obvious thing.
Scottyb

440 iron popper · Post by **440 iron popper** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:45 pm

Scottyb wrote:the inner linings were separated and would collapse.

A very good point there scottyb.
We have had that problem sometimes with hoses that use removable fittings. You fight with the fitting to install it and it takes a bite in this inner rubber part of the hose. Depending wich direction the fluid flows, the chunk of rubber acts like a kind of bad check valve. It cannot supply the amount of fuel the engine needs and dies. You can search for a long time...because a new hose cannot do that

. This engine maybe have some 3/8 rubber hose hooked to a ''push lock'' fitting... It can be a good thing to look at.

parkmanaa · Post by **parkmanaa** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:45 pm

Thanks for all of your ideas and suggestions. We are trying them all, as time permits, and will let you know when we finally determine what the problem is.
We thought we found the problem in the short hose connecting fuel filter to the pump. It seemed to be collapsing. Replaced it but no difference.
We haven't actually placed a pressure guage in the line, but that is one of the things we plan to try next. One reason we haven't is because of the great amount of fuel flowing back into the fuel tank when the engine is running. We loosened the elbow and diesel squirted everywhere. Did that just as it was starting to shut down.
A suggestion has been made that the problem could be seizing bearings or pistons, since the engine was overhauled and the problem started immediately. Thought is possibly the part or parts seize when as the engine comes up to operating temp.
Anybody have any thoughts on that?

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440 ICD Engine shutting down.

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