Bull2

[440 iron popper]

I have another post on show and tell called '' 440 project''. This one is about my second 440IC called Bull2. Long story short... I bought the first one ''440 project'' who needed minor adjustments and I noticed that ''adjustements'' would not make it. Then an another 440 showed up. I went to look at it... Strong undercarriage, plenty of power, nice looking. The seller told me he rebuilded the right final drive and steering clutches. It steered pretty good. Anyway I bought it. I wanted to sell the first one as is and keep bull2. Bull2 was delivered at a almost decent cost to where I needed it to work. I did all adjustements per the manual. I used it for an hour and a half. Oh my God was I happy of this nice purshase. I tried it once more. 6 feet later, the right final blew up, balls of the axle bearing between pinion and bull gear... in the winter... I called back the seller... Censured... He had a complete spare final in his barn. I went there got the final drive as long as some other stuff.

After a good inspection, the whole backend of this tractor need some medical attention. That involves some $$$ also. My goal is to rebuild the transmission (bearings,seals adjustments), steering clutches and finals. Put that together in my garage and then install the whole back end assembly on the tractor. Here are the pics:


Picture on the ad



delivery



something bad in the right final



axle bearing cover popped off



Doesn't move at all... for the winter





Spring 2011. After inspection... finals and steering ruined, missing parts... I decided To take all off. Only the engine/clutch case/nonreverser case remain. The summer 2011 passes.



Shelter for the next winter



As seen 2 days ago summer 2012...



The repair will happen soon (in the next 2 months). I hope. I have to chase for parts and find time to do it.

Bad sellers and their lies involve that kind of consequences. Long term projects.. I enjoy repairing but the goal is to have a usable machine!!! I just wanted a tool for the motocross track... Locknuts, loctite and that kind of stuff exist today to keep the tractor together. That's what it's all about: Adjust per manual and keep parts from coming loose.

[andregrondin]

Hi !

François I'm sure you will be able to do a nice job on this baby !!
lot of work many hours of parts seraching and head scratching but at the end a happier guy that been screwed by a seller but you will finaly be the winner !!!

[whiteclipse16]

Good pics. I had forgot that you had 2 440's. I love the shelter you built for it, that is ingenious.
Good luck to you on getting them both going.

[440 iron popper]

Thanks for the good words guys! I have to get this one running soon.

[440 iron popper]

OK. Now this one makes me cranky a bit...

I went to work on my bull 2, motivated... I noticed a shade of green on the lower part of the transmission case. My curiosity is on... I look at the number on the case: M3552T. This case # is not in the 440 parts manual. I look on Bull 1 transmission case: M4256T. I know bull1 very well knowing it is a 58' with the early transmission... The late 440 trans have a dip stick. I have a doubt: I check the 420 manual... IT IS A 420 TRANSMISSION on Bull2 Unless someone can confirm that it's not a problem to have this early case on a 440, that it is the same, I'm real real dissapointed right now.

[whiteclipse16]

This is very sad news iron popper. I can't say whether the transmission cases interchange, but I'm pretty sure I have a spare input shaft BUT it's for the larger 5 speed trans, not sure if it's the same.
Not sure if your getting one from the old man or not but let me know.

[Lavoy]

Keep in mind that the 440 was made the same year as the last 420, so will use the same transmission case assuming it is an earlier gas crawler. I would doubt that the trans case has been changed to a small case from a large case trans, that would require an awful lot of parts.
Lavoy

[440 iron popper]

It's been a while I logged on here. I took a break of computer during my vacations but I kept wrenching to try to get bull 2 running again.

Thanks Ben and Lavoy for your comments.
The problems in the drivetrain were serious enough for me to think about turning this one into a parts crawler:

Broken Final drives
Steering clutches needing replacement
Leaking seals on the transmission.
Transmission input shaft splines stripped
Pinion of output shaft with a chipped tooth, ring gear as well
drive shaft coming out the engine stripped and the coupling also...

I took all that and went to Fred's shop. It is a recue or scrap situation. We discovered that we needed the 420 parts book because it's an early transmission. He found out an nice input shaft and from there He said he could fix it. I spent 5 days over there with him and we fixed everything. He is a really good mechanic. He rebuilt teeth on pinion and ring gear. I could not tell wich one was broken! All new everything in there. I put Bull 1 finals on bull 2 to speed up the repair.




















The plan was to repair the back end of the tractor at the shop while everything is availaible such as parts, tools, no rain on the new fibers $$. The field repair will be easier. I have to go back to work in Labrador for 21 days. So it will stay like this with a tarpaulin on. I can't wait to be back and finish this.

[whiteclipse16]

You got some serious work done there iron popper.
What are you going to use to lift the tranny/final drive assembly into place on the dozer?

Any ideas on what cause such damage to the drive train components?

[440 iron popper]

Thanks Ben,

I'm gonna use my small crane shown in the pictures. It is precise and good for 2 tons. I dismantled both 440 with it. I think the back end weighs about 1200 lbs.

The causes of all these damages... I think people who bought these kind of tractors back in 1958 had to push them to the limit in the woods to be able to pay the bills of the tractor as well as other stuff. Many field repairs, poor maintenance. Then years of storage outside... because it doesn't steer or push... The input shaft was rusty. Water came in someday and it's not supposed to. Repairs without using any kind of manuals...

One day you blow a final or a bearing in the transmission. It locks up pretty hard. Rusty splines just strip.

Another way to beat them (since I learned the internals of the machine) is to load a blade full of material and then pull on a steering lever. All the torque is now applied on only one track. The peak is reached in the transmission hub on one side only. I don't think the fine splines in it are designed for that. If you push, don't steer. If you need to realign, stop... back up a bit . Align the machine and push with both tracks engaged. Unless under light load. That's my understanding of it.

[whiteclipse16]

Yes that all makes a lot of sense. I'll keep that in mind when I get around to pushing some dirt with mine.
Good luck with getting that back end together. Hopefully you'll have some help in lining everything up.

[Paul Buhler]

The causes of all these damages... I think people who bought these kind of tractors back in 1958 had to push them to the limit in the woods to be able to pay the bills of the tractor as well as other stuff. Many field repairs, poor maintenance. Then years of storage outside... because it doesn't steer or push... The input shaft was rusty. Water came in someday and it's not supposed to. Repairs without using any kind of manuals...

One day you blow a final or a bearing in the transmission. It locks up pretty hard. Rusty splines just strip.

Another way to beat them (since I learned the internals of the machine) is to load a blade full of material and then pull on a steering lever. All the torque is now applied on only one track. The peak is reached in the transmission hub on one side only. I don't think the fine splines in it are designed for that. If you push, don't steer. If you need to realign, stop... back up a bit . Align the machine and push with both tracks engaged. Unless under light load. That's my understanding of it.

Nice fair summary. I was taught how to work in the woods by a gentleman who started with horses and moved up to crawlers. When he showed me places he worked and what they accomplished with such light weight machines, I was amazed. When I was working with him, he stressed work habits that he had learned on smaller machines; these practices like pushing heavier loads with both tracks engaged as you mentioned, and steering (changing approach angles) while backing up - with no load, save wear and tear on machines and improved reliability significantly.

It's fun to read the experiences shared on this site. A lot of people who weigh in have a lot of skill and some of the subtle comments on their work habits give insight into what they have learned over time. Good luck getting your machine back together and out there moving dirt, etc. Paul

[440 iron popper]

Thanks for the good comments Paul. Yes, The operator makes a huge difference when it comes to wear and break down. I plan to use the crawler in the woods to make some small trails and hauling trees out. I don't want to tear it down again for a while!! So I'll use it with care. This website is great. Yeah, so many advices and stories. Often it goes like: I was pushing dirt and then bing bang . I like it.

[andregrondin]

Hi !

Nice job François ! hope to see that work soon !
keep up the good work !!!!

[440 iron popper]

Thanks André.

My next offtime it should be working!!