Track loader powered brush hog

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DrLoch
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Post by DrLoch » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:40 am

Lavoy, very well said especially the "You can talk to your mechanic, the Amish, or your local Tarot card reader", I agree with you. This is what I do for living but on the industrial, testing and entertainment side. You can't bend the laws of physics although I've seen a number of people who have tried. We get a lot of work fixing systems where they try.
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:25 pm

Hi,

Yep. You need a bumper sticker:

Attempting to bend the laws of physics will result in the bending of other things!

Might be time to change my tag line. Nah. Someone else can have this one for free!

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (5045D), 2025 3025E

jhubert
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Post by jhubert » Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:26 pm

Thank you Lavoy for the info. I come here for the benefit of others experience and appreciate all I can get. Am I the only one frustrated with the limitations of our crawlers?!? It seems my local rental place just added to their fleet of junk new holland skid steers, two new 329E deere CTL's so maybe I will keep looking for a place to rent the open front brush hog I am wanting. I would buy one but I'm betting once over this 1.5 acres and ill be able to maintain it with my little 30hp tractor and finish mower. I just wish I had the know-how to fit a new larger pump to my machine and make it more useful. I mean they are all building crazy machines based on the 80hp range motors and that's about where I'm at. Maybe if the economy was great right now someone would be retro-fitting our crawlers to power tools....
455G with 9310G hoe

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:15 pm

Hi,

Well, I make do with my 420c Dozer. I hang a trailing bush hog on the back and run the blade a several inches off the ground. That pushes the brush down, I run over it, and the hog whacks it up. I only have 30 HP total and it works.

A couple years ago, a neighbor farmer was trying to clean up about 20 acres of junk with his 4440 and popped a hole in one of his duals. He roped me into doing it with the 420. No tires to pop....

Sower, sure, but they work. As long as they are not overworked. Now, why in heck the ever so useful PTO shaft disappeared...you need one of those right now. When I had a 350, it did not have one installed, but I was able to add one.....

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (5045D), 2025 3025E

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Lavoy
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Post by Lavoy » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:35 pm

First of all, no I am not disappointed in what my crawlers do. I take a 30 HP machine and I expect it to do 30HP worth of work. It would be rather stupid to think that I can go push dirt with a D8, it isn't a D8. I don't expect my pickup to haul 50,000 lbs either, it was not designed to do so no matter how much I try to modify it to get more HP. It also doesn't fly or float worth a damn, but then again it is not a plane or a boat, so bolting on wings or pontoons will make it neither. If I needed the work of a semi, a plane or a boat done, I would get or hire one of the above, not bitch that the machine I have can not be bastardized to somehow to do a half assed job of what the correct machine for the job would do, and not destroy the machine I own.
Your further comments pretty much sum up the gist of this whole conversation. You just don't get it, you still fail to understand the entire concept after repeated attempts to explain it to you. It is not a matter of putting on a bigger pump, then you are short on engine. Crank the engine up to 100HP, then you are short on cooling, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, there I have wasted the time to explain it again.
So let me try this for the last time. If you want to run an orbital brush hog, buy a machine that was designed to run an orbital brush hog, PERIOD. If your loader is too small, quit bitching, and buy a bigger loader, PERIOD. You have completely, totally, utterly unrealistic expectations of what a 55HP 50 year old machine should be able to do, and refuse to listen to people who have explained at length why it can't do it.
My strongest advice to you is IMMEDIATELY sell that worthless disappointing piece of junk loader that can't be made to run a brush hog, and use the proceeds to hire someone with the knowledge and tools to do the job correctly for you. It is a double benefit, you get the work done and correctly, and a good old crawler does not get destroyed by someone who is incapable of understanding it's limitations based on its age, and what it was originally designed to do 50 years ago.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

jhubert
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Post by jhubert » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:36 pm

My machine isn't 50yrs old. It isn't even 20yrs old as far as the S/N leads me to believe. And it IS about 80hp so that is what frustrates me. It's a platform that starts with the basic ingredients of the big skid steers. Thanks I guess.
455G with 9310G hoe

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Post by Lavoy » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:36 pm

Okay, I read the deal wrong somehow, should have had my glasses on, my mistake, my apologies, I missed the 5. For some reason, I can't find years built, but think 90's. You are 70HP is only spec I can find, hyd flow about 31GPM at 2600PSI. That would yield you about 47HP gross if the spec sheet I found is accurate.
Regardless, it has none of the ingredients of the big skid steers other than it has an engine, not sure where you got that idea, or who told you that, but they are completely, utterly wrong, and that idea is one of the problems here. It is still a gear drive crawler that traces it's lineage back to the first 450's built, not a skid steer, and as such is not designed to run the orbital functions, that fact does not change regardless how much you want it to. The hyd system is designed to run linear functions as in a hyd cylinder, not high flow hyd motors. Most skid steers, other than some of the old clutch drive girls, were built and designed to be hydrostatic drive, which means hyd motors and the corresponding required hyd flow and heat dissipation ability.
My guess is, you should be able to yield about 40HP in terms of hyd capacity at 100% flow assuming your hyd system is in perfect as built condition, if not, my guess would be in the mid 30's HP at best all things considered such as wear and flow resistance due to plumbing, valving, etc, low 30's is likely closer.
IF, and I highly doubt this, you can pull full flow while driving, and I was going to try to do what you want to, which I would not, here is what I would recommend.
Add a fan forced auxiliary oil cooler with a flow rate greater than that of what you will be flowing, say 40GPM on some sort of mount on the back of the crawler. You will also have to install a flow and pressure control valve of some sort on this mount as you will have to tap into the backhoe circuit, and at least on the older machines, this is uncontrolled. It may be possible on yours that they added a pressure relief in the circuit, but I doubt it, normally it is in the valve itself. Return the flow directly from the cooler to the hoe return circuit, first verifying that this is a zero backpressure return. I would also add an auxiliary return filter of 40GPM or so in the circuit, not that expensive.
Then you will have to ensure that the mower you get or build uses a low flow motor that will yield the correct blade shaft RPM, however you mount the blade, at a flow of say 25GPM and 2650PSI. Personally I would look for a trailing mower and size the motor to yield 540RPM and hook it to the PTO shaft so I still had shear pin or slip clutch capability. I would also closely monitor the oil for any signs of cooking.
Once you have gone to all the work and expense, I will make a few predictions.
You will be stupendously disappointed in the overall performance because again, you are adapting a platform to do something it was never designed or conceived to do.
You will have substantially more time and money invested than what it would cost you to have the job professionally done in one day, and then you can just maintain it from then on.
You WILL cause some sort of hyd system failure or at least greatly accelerate wear on a 20 or so year old system that was not meant to stand this load in the first place.
You have an awfully nice crawler there, being disappointed in it not doing what it was never designed to do is a function of unrealistic expectations, not a failing of the crawler, so stop blaming the crawler. It is, nonetheless your crawler and you are free to do with it as you please, and none of my business. You did however ask opinions on doing this modification, and I have tried to tell you in detail why it will not work, at least in any semblance to desired performance.
If you do build it, I would recommend Surplus Center, or Baileys for hyd components, I have had good luck with both places.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

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Post by Lavoy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:57 am

The more I think about it, you will need some sort of bypass, otherwise the mower will try to spin as soon as you try to start the engine, and will always be running. Should be able to tee a bypass into the return line I would think.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

jhubert
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Post by jhubert » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:31 pm

Can anyone confirm for me if the transmission operates as normal when power beyond is active? I can deal with setting the loader at one position and combing thru it, then lowering it and going over again. I would have time since I wouldn't be renting it. I put together a price of 1700 to rent the skid steer and mower for a week (to be safe). Where as I have a 5' brush hog and a welder so maybe the cost of a hydraulic motor and some hoses...

Wouldn't the power beyond serve as my "on switch"? And then a cross port relief so it can wind down?
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Post by Lavoy » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:44 am

On the old crawlers there was a diverter valve you had to push to use the hoe once it was on, but yours is maybe different. On the older crawlers, the flow is live as soon as the engine starts, no control at all. If you didn't connect the two hoe hoses together, they would not start, or they would break the hyd pump case.
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Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:21 am

As Lavoy mentioned, the older JD crawlers were open center hydraulics. I'm not sure if you know the difference between open and closed center, but basically once you start an open center hydraulic machine the flow is continuous between the reservoir tank and pump and there always has to be a place for the fluid to go or the pump will detonate. The types of pumps used in each application are different, and there are advantages/disadvantages to both- open center only allows hookups in series and closed center only allows hookups in parallel. Here are some threads discussing this:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... ter+centre

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owni ... ulics.html

On my 2010 loader hoe machine, there is a quick disconnect hose that would allow connection of the hoe to allow a continuous loop of flow- I don't have a separate power-beyond/diverter valve I have to switch. The loader/hoe hydraulics runs off a pump either on the front of the engine or the rear "PTO" and is entirely isolated from the HLR transmission. The "PTO" on my is always running the rear mounted Cessna pump to run the loader/hoe hydraulics, unless I switch a manual disconnect lever at the end of the crawler or the HLR disconnect switch (which also disconnects the HLR transmission from the engine). I believe there was a diverter valve for the hoe crawlers to allow front attachments such as a multipurpose (4 in 1) bucket to be used off of the loader hydraulic system; however my understanding is you can use the front or rear hydraulics but not both at the same time. In any case it was still isolated from the transmission.

I don't know enough about your late model loader to say whether it is open or closed hydraulics (I'm sure others on here know), but you would need to know that if you start plumbing things in. I'm sure others can also answer your question about whether the PTO; I would guess (but don't know) that it runs continuously and the transmission can be operated independently. My concern would be any modification to the hydraulic systems would trigger some trouble code in the computers; our older crawlers don't have electronics to worry about. I also don't know if the transmission is isolated from the loader hydraulics on the newer machines. Your operator/service manuals should have some description of the basics/theory behind you hydraulic systems to answer some of those questions.

Hope that helps some.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment

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DrLoch
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Post by DrLoch » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:04 pm

Lavoy, Tigerhaze, you are correct. He needs to find out how the hydraulic system is/was designed or something is going to blow up.

If the system is using open center valves or what is also called tandem center valves. A & B block P to T in the center condition. The T port of the of the 1st valve goes into the P port of the 2nd valve.

Another type of system used in mobile hydraulic systems is called load sensing. There are sensing ports that sense the work port pressure and load the pump 250 - 300 PSI higher than the work port pressure.

Again, someone is trying to adapt what he has to do something he needs or wants. Anything can be redesigned or hacked to work. But if not done correctly my guess is something else is going to get damaged along the way. That damage may be mechanical such as the loader, or bodily as in some is going to get hurt or worse. Have you ever seen an injury where hydraulic oil has injected into a person through there skin? I have.

Be that as it may, let me throw out a few things just make sure my name in not involved in a lawsuit of some sort.

Things to consider or get answered:

What size of a blade is being considered? Length and approx weight?
(FYI I have a DR Mower with a 14 HP Kawasaki engine that has a 26 inch blade that weights around 7 - 8 lbs. I have sheared off 2 - 2 -1/2" trees with it)

What is going to be your maximum RPM? I'm assuming your going to be running this with a 1:1 ratio, the blade will attached to the hydraulic motor, correct?

Need to come up with the fluid motor size, cubic inches per rev. From that number pump size can be determined.

Since the device trying to be added is a bush/brush hog which is considered to be a rotary device. The only time the maximum horsepower would be required is when the rotating blade is really loaded up against the load or brush (Work). The amount of pressure required to free spin the blade is going to be very low so the HP requirement will be low. When you are hacking up trees and branches the load/pressure may be high and depending on the what it is will shock the system hydraulically. The load/pressure required when cutting down weeds will be determined by number of factors, how fast you are trying to feed the stuff in, how tall is it, how dense is it.....

Consider this, If your loader is a single gear set/vane pump you could use a double pump. One pump section for the loader hydraulics the other for the bush/brush hog. If that is considered understand that both pumps will be drawing oil from the same reservoir. Also understand that the use of this bush/brush hog is going to generate heat into the oil that you have to get rid of. You don't get something for nothing, it just changes states and I don't mean geography. An oil cooler will be required when running the hydraulic motor but it may some thing that is removable just like the bush/brush hog.

Just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks.
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shinnery
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Post by shinnery » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:57 pm

If you are gonna do it, you might want to look at this one. http://www.purplewave.com/cgi-bin/mnlis ... 0129/C1704
No trees were hurt in the creation of this message.
But, many electrons were terribly bothered.

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DrLoch
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Post by DrLoch » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:28 pm

That is the way to do it.... 75 HP.... There's that physics thing again
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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:20 pm

They do make smaller skid steer brush hogs with lower pumping requirements than the one shown, but they are also less powerful/durable for a crawler application and your flow requirements may still exceed what a supplemental pump or the crawler's hydraulic system can produce.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment

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