440I Lack of Power

foxd · Post by **foxd** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:58 pm

440I - Tractor runs great both at slow idle and fast idle sitting in the shop.
When I take it out for a "field trip" it runs good on level ground, but wants to fall on it's face coming up a modest hill in second gear. It will make it up the hill, but not easily or smoothly.
I had points and condenser installed yesterday. Thinking they may be the problem, I switched them out today for an electronic ignition kit I had sitting on the shelf. After installing the EI kit I reset the engine timing. I also went through the carburetor adjustments, per the manual, for about the third time. Took the tractor out for a spin again with the same results.

I believe the governor is working as it should. When the engine RPM's begin to drop it is opening the butterfly to try and compensate.

Does this sound like a lack fuel issue or something else?
Tomorrow I am going to get new spark plugs, a new cap and a new rotor.

Any thing else I may be overlooking???

Thanks - Dave

Post by **Lavoy** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:12 pm

Load jet open far enough? No restriction in fuel system? Advance weights not stuck?
Lavoy

foxd · Post by **foxd** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:22 am

Will try opening the load jet an additional half turn and see if that helps.
I don't think there are an fuel restrictions, but will check that out again as well.
Did not think about the advance weights... will have to check!
Thanks!!

foxd · Post by **foxd** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:40 pm

440I Update:
Changed the points/condenser to electronic ignition
New Plugs & Wires
Changed cap and rotor
New Fuel Line
Checked for obstructions in tank - tank very clean
Took plug out of the bottom of carb, turned gas on, seems to be plenty of gas flowing.
Advance weights in distributor moving freely
Opened load jet an additional 1/2 turn
Checked, double checked & triple checked timing
Set low idle needle & high idle stop with RPM meter running off PTO

Tractor still seems to struggle coming uphill. I was able to see the governor opening the butterfly slightly each time the engine faltered, but then close again.

I am running out of things to check/change out. May have to pull carb off and go through it again, maybe I missed something the first time.

Anymore suggestions of things to check/change?

Thanks Dave

Post by **Lavoy** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:55 pm

High idle on PTO is probably in the 575- 600RPM range, more if a late tractor. That will really sap power if you are under. When I run them on the dyno, I expect at 540 RPM and loaded, just a little bit of additional load should peg the throttle. With high idle set too low, I have seen HP drop 5 or more, that is a lot, more on an engine making less than new power.
You can also check to see if the linkage from carb to governor is correct, that can hurt too, throttle tends not to open all the way.
Will it smoke under load if you open the load jet more? Try a little choke next time on the hill, if it improves, you are still lean. Float may be a little too high.
Lavoy

Tigerhaze · Post by **Tigerhaze** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:38 pm

I tend to agree with Lavoy about the lean possibility; my understanding is they way to think about the screw adjustments on these types of M-S carbs is they are air, not fuel, adjustments and the float is the fuel adjustment. Thus if the three screws are too far out of adjustment they will really lean out the engine. The fact that the engine falters when the butterfly opens (to allow even more air in the mixture) lends itself to that conclusion.

I have also found out over time that you really have to do the adjustments of the three screws by the book in the order they are presented, and then microtune the power screw when under load (i.e. while driving and pulling an implement), not at increased throttle in neutral. I believe the order is the idle stop, idle speed, and power screw but been a while so going off memory which is not a good thing. If the idle speed and stop are not set using a tach at the proper RPM, it will be difficult to get it right. Having said that each engine is a bit different but the book values for idle speed and number of screw turns are pretty close.

Post by **Lavoy** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:06 pm

Idle is air, but load is fuel.
Lavoy

foxd · Post by **foxd** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:09 pm

Did not get a chance to test drive tractor, so I spent some time this evening going over the linkage.

With both the governor to carb and throttle shaft to governor linkage adjusted according to the SM, I am right around 190 RPM PTO speed on low idle. I think some wear on the rod is keeping me from getting down to into the 167 RPM range. Will try to get rod built up a little at work tomorrow.

With the governor stop screw backed out, so as to not interfere with travel, I am at about 580 RPM PTO speed at high idle.
If I attempt to get to the 612 RPM PTO speed, listed in the SM for 2025 RPM engine speed, the throttle spring cannot hold and it drops back to 580 RPM's. Using a bunge cord to hold throttle lever, I can get to 612 RPM's. I do not believe this is normal, at least on the other tractors I have worked on. With this scenario there would be no need for a stop screw.

Have not had a chance to play with load jet or try the choke yet, hopefully tomorrow evening.

Post by **Lavoy** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:14 pm

Check rod from throttle rod to governor just in case.
I am having the same problem as far as RPM on my 440, but with center throttle. I need 2200 high idle on it, and like yours, can't get the throttle lever spring to hold RPM, but I do not have the correct spring either, they are obsolete.
Lavoy

foxd · Post by **foxd** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:28 pm

Today's Update:
First I discovered that when I set my stop screw in the proper location for high idle of 612 RPM's @ PTO and it drops back to 580 RPM's, that if I back the stop screw out farther, it will overshoot my intended stop point, but then drop back down to 612 RPM's and hold. I don't remember ever having to do this on any other tractors, but seems to be working.

Really the only other thing I changed today was to put the governor to carb linkage (repaired the wear) back on and reset my low idle again.

Then took tractor out for a field trip, before the rain started, all tests were started from bottom of hill at dead stop...
#1 2nd gear, high idle - came up hill with no noticeable issues
#2 2nd gear, 1/4 throttle - came up hill with no noticeable issues
#3 3rd gear, high idle - did ok for first 20-30 feet, stuttered like it wanted to die for maybe 10ft, then came out of it and did ok the rest of the way up
#4 3rd gear, 1/4 throttle - came up hill with no noticeable issues
#5 4th gear, high idle - did ok for first 20-30 feet again, stuttered like it wanted to die for maybe 10ft again, then came out of it and did ok the rest of the way up
#6 4th gear, 1/4 throttle - came up hill with no noticeable issues

This is a large improvement from over the weekend when I had to downshift into 1st just to limp up the hill & couldn't hardly get moving at all on level ground in 3rd gear.
Is it possible that the wear in the linkage could have been causing the governor to have little to no effect on the carb under load causing some of my problems?

I also repeated tests 3 & 5 with the load screw adjusted out an additional half turn and an additional full turn, but that did not seem to make any difference, but I did not see any black smoke either. Didn't stutter long enough to try choke.

DukeofDeere · Post by **DukeofDeere** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:44 pm

Governor lobes are wore. This gives the slow response and then takes off once past the point.

Duke

foxd · Post by **foxd** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:26 pm

Anyone know where I can find a splined shaft for a front mounted hydraulic pump? Mine is worn pretty badly. The pump is a HYDRECO & the part number of the shaft is U10410, says no longer available from Deere. Not sure what else this shaft may have been used on.
Thanks - Dave

Post by **Lavoy** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:14 pm

That is about it, and I have had no luck finding anything. Only thing you can really do is find 1" 6 spline shaft stock and make a spacer to replace the enlarged section of spline.
Lavoy

whiteclipse16 · Post by **whiteclipse16** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:44 am

Lavoy wrote:Check rod from throttle rod to governor just in case.
I am having the same problem as far as RPM on my 440, but with center throttle. I need 2200 high idle on it, and like yours, can't get the throttle lever spring to hold RPM, but I do not have the correct spring either, they are obsolete.
Lavoy

Lavoy is this on an ICD?
What should the PTO RPM settings be for the ICD in relation to engine RPM?

foxd, You might want to check timing again. I can remember on my grandpa's 2010 the distributor came loose and the timing moved slightly and it had no power. Would just pop and stumble when under load but with no load it purred nice.
If I remember right from reading on here, a lot of people haven't had much luck with the electronic ignition system on these old crawlers.

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:34 am

No, diesels run at the same RPM as the early gas crawlers. When the diesels came out, they upped the compression and RPM on the gassers to get the HP rating the same as the diesel.
Lavoy

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440I Lack of Power

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