420C "Skidder"

[yukonjack]

Last October I brought home a crawler dozer; decals say 420, former owner says 420; tin is all green, but serial number plate is gone...center section between the engine and transmission must have been replaced new sometime because it was never drilled for the plate mounting "rivets". But anyway early 420 might describe it. Its a 5 roller that starts, runs, pushes, pulls, turns right and left just like its supposed to.
Has a logging canopy(welds are rough so if its factory its been crunched and repaired) and what looks like an ag PTO shaft driving a Braden M3H-10C winch, which according to Braden brochures I've found online was marketed by Braden for the 40 crawler. The winch has no fairlead and I don't think it ever did, at least there are no cut off welds or unused bolt holes; and the cable has crunched the winch's brake band, apparently by ground-skidding with it.

So my questions: From looking at the parts book online it appears that the 40s and 420s did not use a tractor mounted fairlead, is that correct? Instead I see a Model 100 wheeled logging arch that pulls from the drawbar? When I was a kid and these tractors were new I saw guys ground-skidding logs with them all around Maine; did they use winches by other manufacturers? Did they blow up many final drives that way?

Thanks for any insight, Jack

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

So, I take it this is a drawbar crawler, no blade or bucket? There was no factory canopy in those days. Those are usually home made. Lots of third parties made all sorts of stuff for them. No factory logging arch or winch, but plenty out there from other makers.

The easy way to tell a 420 from a 40 is the water pump. That 20 percent power increase meant they had to add a water pump. Unless, of course, someone stuck a 40 engine in. The 5-roller part says 420 to me. The early ones were all green and usually had no reverser. If they did, the lever is on the right of the dash and the reverser is a gear unit inside a center frame. The later reverser replaced the center frame with a differential unit and has a separate bell housing and the lever is on left.

Stan

[Jim B]

Gearmatic was another brand that was common. People mounted many different winches, some off old wrecker trucks or other equipment, even made winches from rear axles. I have seen some that were neat installations and some were just plain scary. Carco and Hyster were others not as popular. They were larger for the most part and used on Cats and bigger IH units. In the past few years I've seen people mounting electric powered winches as well; and one hydraulic driven one a loader crawler.

The Gearmatic drives and brakes were enclosed where most of the Braden, and a number of the other make fits, had more of the workings exposed. These are more susceptible to damage or causing injuries. Some those the operator had get off the crawler and operate the winch while standing on the ground behind the winch.

There were variations of fairleads (rollers boxing around the cable drum opening) and arches (rollers mounted on a frame above the winch). I believe most of the early ones were home built. I am not sure but Gearmatic may have offered a mounted arch. I have seen several of those on crawlers, with Gearmatic winches, that appeared to be factory made. Lavoy, Stan, or some of the others here may know for sure, but I think the 1010-2010 series was about the time JD started offering their own winches, fairleads, and mounted arches.

My personal opinion is the mounted arches are hard on the final drives. My father-in-law had a 430 with a Gearmatic 8A and mounted arch. We took it off after replacing a final drive bearing a second time in a year, when he was harvesting some wood from the farm for sale. He got a tow behind arch, home built, which he used from then on. We did not have to replace a final drive bearing after that and it was around for another 25 (+/-) years after. It would haul a very respectable twitch (more than the mounted arch) using the tow behind arch, as there was little surface dragging on the ground. They are a bit of a pain to get around with but you learn to deal with it. I still have it and plan to get it hooked up to the 450E. Timber is cleaner using one. The twitch can be carried higher which keeps it cleaner if your are working with any bare ground, easier on chainsaws and the mills are happier.

As Stan said canopies, brush guards, etc. were home built for them. Personal opinion any crawler with a winch should at least have a guard of some type between it and the operator. I believe a heavier grill guard(s) was available as an option for these crawlers from JD.

Just my thoughts from what I've seen around this area over the years.

Jim

[yukonjack]

Thanks to you both for your replies. That pretty much nails it down, Stan, as it does have a water pump. It also does have an inside blade: no angle, no tilt, just straight push, and I believe factory hydraulics with the odd valve control stick to get up, pressure down, and float from the valve bank mounted over the oil tank. No reverser, just reverse in the transmission; it may have had a reverser once, but as I say the center section with the bell housing appears to have been changed out previously.

Thanks, Jim, for your thoughts and observations. Yeah, my Braden winch has dry brake and clutch, right out in the open and subject to damage. The former owner has extended the winch controls forward so it doesn't need to be operated from the ground now. You've kind of confirmed my thinking, and I'll make a fairlead that will protect the brake band rather than a tractor-mounted arch. I don't own a woodlot; in New Brunswick permits are available (and pretty cheap) to cut 7 cords per year of personal use firewood on public land, but every year they cut a different block of land with different terrain, some of the blocks would be hard to get around with a wheeled arch I think.

Jack

[fundytides]

Hi Jack. I have nothing to add to what has already been said but just wanted to say hi from another New Brunswicker. I am in Saint John and have an old 4 roller 40c that I resurrected a few years ago. I have rebuilt the engine and one of the final drives and use it sporadically for twitching a few logs on my property. Don't have a winch but if I could find one reasonably priced nearby, I would be tempted. Good luck and be safe!

[notmeu]

The winches are out there. It took me over a year to find two of them to make one good one. If your willing to travel and willing to total rebuild them you’ll find one!

[hydrogeo]

I have a Carco C3 on my 40c. This winch seems to be pretty rare, I've only seen a couple of pictures of other ones on JDs. The manual I got from someone on here references installation on an Case crawler. Unlike the other winch options the Carco does not run off the PTO, it is driven straight off the trans input shaft. The lever on the winch is the only way to engage/disengage it.

I don't really like that the winch ring and pinion are always spinning but it's held up for more years than I've been around so I guess it's fine. It's a very heavy, stout winch that seems a fair bit too powerful for the crawler. I idle the crawler all the way down to use it, and even still either whats on the hook is coming or the crawler is going. I can understand why life expectancy of loggers in the old days wasn't that great.

I like being able to spin around and twitch stuff out with a minimum amount of disturbance, but I do hope to build a wheel arch this summer as it's hard to get the ends of the logs up off the ground so they skid easy without an arch.

[notmeu]

Do you guys use logging chains or wire rope chokers? I started out with rope chokers and ditched them within a few weeks of using them and went to logging chains. The chains allow you to wrap the log and get the winch cable closer to the log itself, allowing the front of the log to lift up better where they would just drag on the ground with a cable due to its length.

[hydrogeo]

I use a swedged cable, slides, and chain chokers that are for a 60hp sized Fransguard logging winch. Agreed, the chain chokers work great but for larger logs they still hang too low. I run 3 slides and and end hook. It’s pretty amazing what that little crawler will pull.