JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

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oldmetalmender
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JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:24 pm

I have not been on here in a while. I finally got caught up on a project and got it to it's owner. One of the things waiting for my attention is my 1978 JD450C with turbo. I am about to do a third head gasket and I am looking closely to try and not have to do this again. I have found a liner low on one area and that brings me here to ask about it.

First some history on the machine. I bought it 5 years ago. It had a blown head gasket when I bought it. I did not discover it till I had it shipped here to my home. The previous owner wrote in a log book the work he did to replace it and that it blew. He said nothing about it. I missed it as I had driven 10 hours one way to look at it and I was tired. My fault there. The dozer sat idle 7 years in his possesion after his repair and failure. I bought it, found the issue and repaired the head gasket and replaced a ton of stuff. Injectors, lines, had the head very lightly surfaced, corrected valve height, pressure checked, some welding on the radiator frame etc. The head gasket blew again in 20 minutes from start up. I do not recall retorquing the head bolts.
Fast forward to Yesterday and another head removal. While the first head gasket showed multiple grooves from pressure pushing it's way to the water jacket, this head gasket yesterday showed nothing obvious for where it blew. I found the head gasket was not centered on block as one of the guide pins is severly erroded and allows the gasket to shift on the cylinder liner. The fire ring had drifted off the liner land and was partially on the deck of the block. The manual states the head gasket should be centered on the liner to within .040 I am sure it was way out at this point.
Today looking closer and measuring I found the liner on number 4 was .006 low like the liner was tilted in the block. Please see the picture.

Image

The rear guide pin damage.

Image

My main questions are...
Could this mean my block might be cracked where the liner packing land is under the head gasket fire ring? and that the liner land might be broken away and in the oil pan?
The fact that the head gasket fire ring drifted out of position on to the block deck where the liner was .006 low, could this be the cause of the head gasket failure?

I have ordered new JD guide pins. This will help keep the head gasket where it is supposed to be.
One pin is fine and intact up forward. The rear one is badly erroded from coolant or water contact long term.. It is tapered, any advice on how to extract this? How tight are they in the block? I was thinking about welding a big nut on it and prying up with two prybars at the same time. It looks like a one shot deal.

The liner top ridge is .027 higher than the liner fire ring. A new head gasket is .055 thick. the liner is .006 low only between the black marker marks. If I keep the head gasket in the proper place, does the .006 low matter?

I also bought all new head bolts. I was told by two people that is why it would not hold a seal. Both of them heavy equipment mechanic's.

Any advice, thoughts, or ribbing???

EDIT: I forgot to add I put a precision straight edge on the deck of the block and was not able to get a .0015 feeler gauge under any part of it. So the block deck looks to be OK. The cylinder head also checked out good for warpage.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

Jim B
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Jim B » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:38 pm

My quick answer is you need to go deeper and at least pull the liners and check the block. I think you should have .001" to .004" liner protrusion above the deck. If you are measuring .006" below the deck as it sets it is actually .007 to .010 low as I figure it. The liner should be even all around, not tilted.

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:21 pm

I would second that. Make sure liner protrusion is consistent all the way across. If low, shim it up, if high, may have to have them planed.
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oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:46 pm

I had a heavy equipment mechanic friend come by today to borrow my log splitter. We took a long look at the engine. I showed him everything I had found. He thinks the block is damaged and the packing land or ridge? is broken for it to be so low. The opposite side of the liner is high. So it is definately not in straight. I had a different guy tell me a year ago when discussing these engines that the 4219 blocks crack there. And to look there specifically when it is apart. He has a reputation for being THE John Deere guy to go to around here. Anyway....

My friend that was here today made this suggestion. He mentioned I had the old 400 backhoe and this 450C dozer both that have the same basic engine. (the 400 is not turbocharged) He said to try and get a shortblock assembly and get the dozer running for the snow that is coming. Take the old short block apart and do a rebuild on it later when you have time to do it the way you like to build stuff. With two John Deere's that have the same engine, you should have a spare on a stand ready to go. If you take the engine apart now and find the block is cracked where the packing land is, You will have engine parts spread all over the shop, you will have find a block and it will take that much longer to get going. He said I know you and you will leave no detail untouched. (translation= you do good work but it will be spring before you get it going. Meaning I am slow and detailed) Well he is right.

So I don't know where I am headed with this repair yet. I looked in the previous owner records, the engine has been rebuilt twice already. I also looked for short blocks. The seem to run about 4 grand. I don't want a craigslist engine with problems to find later. I am leary of ebay with the counterfeits both ebay and amazon are now plagued with. I did find a bare block on ebay for a grand. Again I am leary of what I cannot inspect.

Lavoy I was going to send you a PM asking about an in frame kit. We chatted very briefly about that a year or so ago. Now I don't know if I need one just yet. Can anyone suggest a reliable short block supplier? I think I will get ready to pull the engine, put it on a stand, lay all parts on folding tables and start measuring everything for wear. And hope the block is good. Maybe I will be able to find a good short block and get it going sooner than later. I tend to use the backhoe for snow when the plow truck gets overwhelmed. So I really don't need the dozer right away. Thanks for the advice to look further. I needed a second opinion.
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1975 JD 450C crawler

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:25 pm

Not really sure on short block supplier, I am more a fan of rebuild your own rather than trust someone else.
The problem I have here, is if you removed 180 degrees of the land that the liner sits in, it still can't tilt because the bottom is held solid in the block where the liner seals are. I can not for the life of me see how it is possible for the liner to be tilted that many thousandths. IF is, that would have to mean the bottom of the liner is .050 or more out of center, and I just can not see how that is possible. I may be wrong, and if someone can explain it to me, I am open to changing my mind, but I am skeptical.
I would pull that liner, look at the liner seat for damage, or see if there is something obvious that is wrong. Either way, I would not buy a short block if and/or until you have proven that your block is bad. IF it isn't, do an inframe and be on your way.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by B Town » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:28 am

I’m thinking damage to the low side or debris under the high side. It is not uncommon for debris to be left on the liner landing or to fall in with the liner installation. Hopefully no a block problem. I agree with Lavoy, just push the one suspect liner out. Port-a-power from the bottom on the liner edge and it is out! Best regards, Bruce

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by 77 Ford » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:28 am

I can't imagine that the liner has that kind of flex in it. If there was something on the ledge then the whole liner would just stick out. Like Lavoy says the math to make that thing tilt is mind boggling. I would be very curious to see that liner out on a known flat surfaced and measured.
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oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:37 am

Interesting stuff developing here regarding all this this morning. My next work project has been canceled. The owner has developed cancer and his life priorities have changed. Restoring an old jeep is not in his cards. Disturbing news. I spent more time awake last night than asleep.
I too pondered how a liner could show so much tilt with the O-ring castings below that would hold it pretty much in place. I wanted an extra loaded block around for future use. I have a lot of spares for what I own. I am programed that way I guess. I don't need an extra block really. I wanted to get the dozer going sooner than later. That does not matter much now. So I will pull the liner out and see what is up there. I looked up a short block assembly from JD part number RE 19855 and they said available, but a call to several dealers showed no longer available. Broken Tractor in LA has them for 4500. Business's with no reviews make me suspicious. I will use that as a last resort.
There is not much room to work under the dozer. I wish I had stacked more boards on the floor for some height. I hate confined spaces.
So when doing an in frame, do you find the crank rod and main bearing size's and given no severe damage on the crank journals, just roll them in?
I envisioned using a wood block to tap up on the liner. I do have a port-o-power. But wanted to not force anything. What ever works there.
I guess I had better get to it. I will know more later. How far I go with new parts. I will report out what is going on with number 4 liner.
My dozer is not a 1978 as I was told. I found a purchase date of 4/24/76 and the serial number is 226968 Engine is 4219 CT 02 ser # 340750 T
Onward and thanks for the help.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Jim B » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:48 pm

450C Crawler serial number 226968 looks like it makes it a 1975 machine, by the serial number list on the FAQ Board. That would be likely if it was purchased in early 1976.

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:21 pm

Thank you for that. The seller said it was a 78. Pretty hard to purchase a 78 in early 76. :mrgreen:

So what is the secret for removing a stuck liner? I definately need and in frame rebuild. The liner looks pretty bad with coolant etching and scoring from running it with the corrosion that was created. Hardly any cross hatch left at all. The piston looks pretty good but shows signs of liquid soaking long term. There are big divots of missing metal in the liner walls. I tried a brass drift and some light taps. Then got out the port-o-power and alternated from side to side carefully moving the crank out of the way each time. Absolutely no movement what so ever. I got to the point of seeing the frame rails start to lift. Bad stuff there... I have the P-power unit still pushing on it. I will leave it tonight and hope it free's up. The other three liners are bolted down as per the manual.
Another bad find? the lower timing idler gear (the biggest lower one) is rocking back and forth on it's bore quite a bit. For a helical cut gear it seems like a lot. The manual right here says Lower idler to right balancer gear backlash 0.0018 to 0.0156 well the gear is rocking front to back about 1/8 of an inch not taking the backlash into consideration. The neighboring gear teeth look a little rough. I have seen worse though.

It would be nice to get the liner out to see if the block is any good. Any tricks to try?

Here are pictures.

Image

Image
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by jsal » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:31 am

keep pressure on liner and use a block of wood and a 8 lb sledge hammer on top of the block to persuade it loose

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:08 am

I will try that Jim. Thank you.
I did try about 5 good whacks with a big snap on slide hammer 3 jaw puller. I decided to quit so I did not damage the OD of the sleeve. I see the liner puller in the manual. I will try the sledge on top idea, and then probably see about building a puller to try and apply pressure equally. I also soaked the top with PB blaster yesterday. It will come out. Eventually.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by jsal » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:26 pm

another option if you have any axel nut sockets or heavy wall pipe slightly larger than the cylinder liner OD a 3/4" threaded rod and fabricate a plate for the bottom of the liner and screw it out done them both ways


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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:26 pm

If the bore of that sleeve is as bad as it looks in the pic, I wouldn't worry about saving it.
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oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:00 pm

I never had plans to save it. Especially after seeing it with the piston out. It is actually worse on the opposite side from the picture. So I made a puller that I am trying to post a picture of. Paint won't let me save the resized pic. I used a 3/4 or so thick bar and used two coil spring compressor hook shafts to draw it up. I put 3/8 metal spacers under the bar to give me room to pull up at least 3/8. Well it was insanely tight. I was able to slowly alternate tightening each nut and it finally rose. It is still unusually tight. I see rust and corrosion under the liner flange. I soaked it with more PB blaster and came in for dinner. I decided I am going to remake the puller by making a lower puck with a shoulder to sleeve up just a tad inside the bore of the liner. So it won't shift and or damage the bottom of the liner. Thankfully the bottom of the liner is tapered. The OD I will turn down slightly smaller than the liner bore so it will continue to pull while passing through the o-ring castings and up and out. There is a good chance I will need the puller on the remaining three liners. I'm not pulling them till I clean up number 4 and make sure the block is good. I also called Broken Tractor down south and asked about a shortblock. To see if they were available and shipping in case my block is toast. They are and 4500 bucks no core 300 shipping. Ouch. I will hope for an inframe kit and a workable block. I have to fix it as big yellow yard art is not in the cards. Now that the liner is moving, the rest should be easier. Knock on wood. I'll will post up what I find.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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